JD Vance's AI Speech, Techno-Optimists vs Doomers, Tariffs, AI Court Cases with Naval Ravikant

great job nabal you rocked it maybe I should have said this on air but that was literally the most fun podcast I've ever recorded oh that's on air cut that in yeah put it in the show put it in the show I had my theory on why you were number one but now I have the realization what's the actual reason you know us for a long time yeah what was your theory what's a reality my theory was that my problem with going on podcast is usually the person I'm talking to is not that interesting they're just asking the same questions and they're dialing it in and they're not that interested it's not like we're having a peer level actual conversation so that's why I wanted to do air chat and Clubhouse and things like that cuz you can actually have a conversation I see right and what you guys have very uniquely is four people you know of whom at least three are intelligent I'm kidding how could you say that isn't here what SX isn't even hearing you say that that is so cold best right these three are intelligent and all of you get along and you can have an ongoing conversation that's a very high hit rate normally in a podcast you only get one interesting person and now you've got three maybe four right okay so that to me was why Su and by you're talking to is number four we don't know she remain mysterious forever of the four right the problem is like if you get people together to talk two is a good conversation three possibly four is the max that's why in a dinner table at a restaurant four top right you don't do five or six because then exp splits into multiple conversations so you had four people who were capable of talking right that I thought thought was a secret but there's another secret the the other secret is you guys are having fun you're talking over each other you're making fun of each other you're actually having fun so that's why I'm saying this is the most fun podcast I've ever been on and that's that's why you'll be welcome back anytime no all welcome back yes absolutely in three smart [Music] guys I can't even believe you'd say that about sax he's not even here to defend himself sorry David let your winners [Music] ride we open sources to the fans and they've just gone crazy with [Music] it all right everybody welcome back to the number one podcast in the world we're really excited today back again your sultant of science David freeberg what do you got going on there freeberg what's in the background want I used to play I used to play a lot of a game called Sim Earth on my Macintosh LC way back in the day that tracks yeah that tracks and of course with us again your chairman what games did you play growing up J actually I'm kind of curious did you ever play video games let's say Andrea Allison uh Susan I mean it was like a lot of cute girls I was out dating girls freeberg yeah I was not on my Apple tun playing civilization let me find one of those pictures of who whoa don't get me in trouble Man the 80s were ' 80s were good to me in Brooklyn rejection the video game yes you have three lives rejected rejected it's a numbers game chamal as you know as you well know it is a numberous game yeah Nick go ahead pull up uh pull up Rico Suave here oh no what is this one instead of playing video here I am no the80s that's fat that's fat J you want get Nick help out help out your unle yeah here he is out slaying help out your uncle with the VIN Jak C you know what he was sling in there snack yeah you pric and post asmic right correct and weightlifting beef jerky go find my Leonardo decaprio picture please and replace my fat jow picture with that thank you oh God I was fat man plus 40 lbs is a lot heavier than I it's no joke it's no joke 40b a lot I there's so many great emo photos of me I'm proud of you thank you my man thank you my man if you want a good can you get through the intros please so we can start come on quick how you doing brother how you doing chairman dictator you good all right all right we're really excited today today for the first time on the Allin podcast the Iron Fist of Angel list the zenik mage of the early stage he has such a way with words he's the socer te of nerds please welcome my guy Namaste Nal how you doing the intros are back that is the best intro I've ever gotten I didn't think I don't I didn't think you could do that that was amazing that's your super power right there lock it in quit Venture Capital just do that absolutely that's actually you know what interestingly number one podcast in the world like someone said I mean that's what I'm manifesting it's getting close we've been in the top 10 so I mean the weekends are good for all in this this one will hit number one this one will go vir I think it could if you have some really great piffy insights we might go right to the top I just got to do a seile and it'll go viral oh no oh no are you gonna send us your heart my heart goes out to you my heart I I end here at the heart I don't send it out I keep it right here I put both hands on the heart and I hold it nice and stady I hold it in it's sending out to you but just not explicitly all right for those of you who don't know Naval was an entrepreneur uh he kicked a bit of ass he got his ass kicked and then he started Venture hacks and he started emailing folks and saying you know 20 15 20 years ago maybe 15 here are some deals in Silicon Valley he went around he started writing 50k 100K checks he hit a bunch of home runs and he turned Venture hacks into Angel list and then he has invested in a ton of great startups uh maybe give us some of the greatest hits there Dev yeah Twitter Uber notion bunch of others um Postmates you to me lot of unicorns buch up coming I it's actually a lot of deals at this point but honestly I'm not necessarily proud of being an investor investor to me is a side job it's a hobby so I do startups how how do you define yourself I don't I mean I guess these days I would say more like building things you know every every so-called career is an evolution right and all of you guys are independent and you kind of do what you're most interested in right that's the point of making money so you can just do what you want so these days I'm really into building and crafting products so I built one recently called airchat it kind of didn't work I'm still proud of what I built and got to work with an incredible team and now I'm building a new product and this time I'm going into Hardware oh and I'm just building something that I really want I I'm not it all yourself Nal partially I bring investors along last time they got their money back previous times they've made money next time hopefully they'll make a lot of money it's good to bring your friends along I'll be honest I love that you said I love the product but it didn't work not enough people say that yeah I know I I built a product that I loved that I was proud of but it didn't catch fire and it was a social product so it had to catch fire for it to work so I found the team great homes they all got paid the investors that I brought in got their money back and I learned a ton which I'm leveraging into the new thing but the new thing is much harder the new thing is hardware and software and what did you what did you learn building in 2024 and 20125 that you didn't know maybe before then the main thing was actually just the craft the craft of pixel by pixel designing a software product and launching it I guess the main thing I took away that was a learning was that I really enjoyed building products and that I wanted to build something even harder and something even more real and I think like a lot of us I'm inspired by Elon and you know all the incredible work he's done so I don't want to build things that are easy I want to build things that are hard and interesting and I want to take on more technical risk and less Market risk this is the classic VC learning right which is you want to build something that if people get it if you can deliver it you know people will want it and it's just hard to build as opposed to you build it and you don't know if they want it so that's a learning air chat was a lot of fun for those of you who don't know it was kind of like a social media Network where you could ask a question and then people could respond and it was like an audio-based Twitter would you say that was the the best way to describe it audio Twitter asynchronous AI transcripts and all kinds of AI to make it easier for you translation really good way for kind of try to make podcasting type conversations more accessible to everybody cuz honestly one of the reasons I don't go on podcast I don't like being intermediated so to speak right where you sit there and someone interviews you and then you go back and forth and you go through the same old things I just want to talk to people I want peer relationships kind of like you guys have running here nval what happened when you went through that phase there was a period where it just seemed like something had gone on in your life and you just knew the answers you were just so grounded it's not to say that you're not grounded now but you're you're less active posting and writing but there was this period where I think all of us were like right what does nval think oh really oh okay that's USS to be I would say it would be like the late teens the early 20s Jason you can correct me if I'm getting the dates wrong but it's been that moment where like these Naval isms and this sort of philosophy really started to I think people had a tremendous respect for how you were thinking about things I I'm just curious like what were you going through something in that moment or like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that's right no very insightful yeah 20 so i' I've been on Twitter since 2007 cuz I was an early investor but I never really tweeted I didn't get featured I had no audience I was just doing the usual techie guy thing talking to each other and then I started Angelus in 2010 the original thing about matching investors to startups didn't scale it was just an email list that exploded at early on but then just didn't scale so we didn't have a business and I was trying to figure out the business and at the same time I got a letter from the Securities and Exchange Commission saying oh you're acting as an unlic broker dealer and I'm like what I'm not making any money I'm not I'm just making intros I'm not taking anything it's just a public service but even then they were coming after me so I wasn't and I'd raised a bunch of money from investors so I was in a very high stress period of my life now looking back it's almost comical that I was stressed over but at the time it all felt very real the weight of everything was on my shoulders expectations people money regulators and I eventually went to DC and got the law change to legalize what we do which ironically enabled a whole bunch of other things like icos and incubator days and so on demo days but in that process I was in a very high stress period of my life and I just started tweeting whatever I was going through whatever realizations I was happening it's only in stress that you sort of are forced to grow and so whatever internal growth I was going through I just started tweeting it not thinking much of it and it was a mix of there are three things that I kind of always kind of are running through one is I love science you know I'm an amateur love physics let's just leave it at that I love reading a lot of philosophy and thinking deeply about it and I like making money right truth Love and Money that's my joke on my Twitter bio those are the three things that I keep coming back to and so I just started tweeting about all of them and I think before that the expectation was that someone like me should just be talking about money stay in your lane and people had been playing it very safe and so I think the combination of the three sort of caught people's attentions because every person thinks about everything we don't just stay in our Lane in real life we're dealing with our relationships we're dealing with our relationship with the universe we're dealing with what we know to be true and you know with science and how we make decisions and how we figure things out and we're also dealing with a practical everyday material things of how to deal with our spouses or girlfriends or wives or husbands and how to make money and how to deal with our children so I'm just tweeting about everything I just got interested in everything I'm tweeting about it and a lot of it my best stuff was just notes to self it's like hey don't forget this how to get rich remember that one how to get rich that like one theads and super Yeah Bang Yeah Yeah Yeah I think that is still the most viral threat ever on Twitter I like Timeless things I I like philosophy I like things that are still apply in the future I like compound interests if you will in ideas obviously recently X has become so addictive that we're all checking it every day and elon's built the perfect for you he's built Tik Tok for nerds and we're all on it but normally I try to ignore the news obviously last year things got real we all had to pay of attention to the news but I just like to tweet Timeless things I I don't know I mean people pay attention sometimes they like what I write sometimes they they go non ler on me but yeah the how to get rich sweet storm was a big one is it problematic when people now meet you because the the hype versus the reality there's like it's discordant now because people if they absorb this content they expect to see Somey da yeah floating in the in the air you know what I mean yes yeah like many of you have stopped drinking but I used to like have the occasional glass of wine and there was a moment there where I went and met with an information reporter back when I used to meet with reporters and she said where are we going to meet so I said oh let's meet at the the wine merchant and we'll get a glass she's like what you drink like it was like a big deal for I'm so disappointed I was like I'm an entrepreneur most of them are alcoholics or and psychedelics or yeah for sure takes to man hot tub yeah right yeah when they say I'm on therapy you know what that that's code for um so yes it is highly Discord medine yeah I'm I'm almost reminded of that line in The Matrix where that agent is about to like shoot one of the Matrix characters and says only human right so that's kind I want to say to everybody like only human yeah yeah yeah you did a recently a podcast with Tim Ferris on parenting this was out there I love this and I bought the book from this guy yeah just give a a brief overview of this philosophy of parenting oh I didn't listen to this I have to write this down tell us this you're going to love this I this spoke to me but it was a little crazy yeah so I'm a big fan of David Deutsch David deuts I think is basically the smartest living human he's a scientist who yeah Quantum computation and he's written a couple of great books but it's about the intersection of the greatest theories that we have today the theories with the most reach and those are epistemology the theory of knowledge Evolution quantum physics and computation this is the beginning of infinity guy that's theity is always reference correct yes the fabric of reality is another book I've spent a fair bit of time with him done some podcasts with him hired and worked with people around him and I'm just really impressed because it's like the the framework that's made me smarter I feel like because we're all fighting aging our brains are getting slower and we're always trying to have better ideas so as you age you should have wisdom that's your substitute for the raw horsepower of intelligence going down and so scientific wisdom I take from David not take but you know I learned from David and one of the things that he pioneered is called taking children seriously and it's this idea that you should take your children seriously like adults you should always give them the same Freedom that you would give an adult if you wouldn't speak that way with your spouse if you wouldn't force your spouse to do something don't force a child to do something and it's only through the latent threat of physical violence hey I can control you I can make you go to your room I can take your dinner away or whatever that you intimidate children and it resonated with me because I grew up very very free my father wasn't around when I was young my mother didn't have the bandwidth to watch us all the time she had other things to do and so I kind of was making my own decisions from a extremely young age from the age of five nobody was telling me what to do and from the age of nine I was telling everybody what to do so I'm used to that and I've been homeschooling my own kids so the philosophy resonated and I found this guy Aaron stuple on air chat and he was an incredible Expositor of the philosophy he lives his life with it 99% as Extreme as one can go so his kids can eat all the ice cream they want and all the Snickers bars they want they can play on the iPad all they want they don't have to go to school if they don't feel like it they dress how they want they don't have to do anything they don't want to do everything is a discussion negotiation explanation just like you would with a roommate or an adult living in your house and it's kind of insane and extreme but I live my own home life in that Arc in that direction and I'm a very free person I don't have an office to go to I try really not to maintain a calendar if I can't remember it I don't want to do it I don't send my kids to school I really try not to coers them and so obviously that's an extreme model but I was sorry sorry sorry hold on a second so yeah your kids if they if they were like I want hog and and it's 900 p.m. you're like okay two nights ago I did this I ordered the hog andas it wasn't hog andas it was a different brand I ordered it I'm just going to go through a couple of examples in we do ice cream at 9:00 p.m. and we all ate so they're like Dad I want and they're happy they're happy kids I want to be on my iPad I'm playing fortnite leave me alone I'll go to sleep when I want you're like okay my oldest probably plays iPad nine hours a day okay so then your other kid pees in their pants because they're too lazy to walk to the bathroom they don't do that because they don't like peeing their pants no I understand but I'm just saying like there's a spectrum of all of these things right yeah and your point of view is 100% of it is allowed and you have no judgments no no that's not where I am that's where that's where Aaron is my rules are a little different my rules are they got to do one hour of math or programming plus two hours of reading every single day and the moment they've done that they're free creatures and everything else is a negotiation we have to persuade them it's a persuasion I should say not even a negotiation and even the hour of math and 2 hours of reading really you get 15 to 30 minutes of math maybe an hour if you're lucky and you get half an hour to two hours of reading if and what do you think the long-term consequences of that are and then also what is the long-term consequences let's say on health if they're making decisions you know are just not good like the ice cream thing at 9:00 p.m. how do you how do you manage that in your mind I think whatever age you're at whatever part you're at in life you're still always struggling with your own habits I think all of us for example still eat food and feel guilty or want to eat something that we shouldn't be eating and we're still always evolving our diets and kids are the same so my oldest is already he passed on the ice cream last time and he said I want to eat healthier because finally I managed to get through to him and persuade him that he should be healthier my younger kids will eat it but they'll eat a limited amount my middle kid will sometimes eat some so if they say something you'll enable it but then you'll guide you'll be like Hey listen like this is not the choice I would make I don't think but if you want it I do it yeah I'll try it but you also have to be careful where you don't want to intimidate them and you don't want to be so overbearing that then they just view dad is like controll it I find this so fasc and so what do you think happens to these kids at the like I'm sure you have a vision of what they'll be like when they're fully formed adults like what is that Vision I I try not to they're going to be who they're going to be I this is kind of how I grew up I kind of did what I wanted I I would ra I would rather they have agency than turn out exactly the way I want cuz agency is the hardest thing right having control over your own life making your own decisions them to be happy I have a very happy household what is the Plato what's Plato's goal udonia right like udonia yeah the happy arist like the the Fulfillment this Con is that what you want for them I don't really want anything for them I just want them to be free and their best selves God I want shamat is worrying about details he's got like 17 kids now I don't know if you know but shamat has got like a whole punch list of things but I love this interview because the guy made a really interesting point which was they're going to have to make these decisions at some point they're going to have to learn the pros and cons the the the upside the downside to all these things eating iPad and the quicker you get them to have agency to make these decisions for themselves with knowledge to ask questions the more secure they'll be I found it a fascinating discussion I like cause and effect especially in teenagers now that I have a teenager it's really good for them to learn hey you know if you don't do your homework you you have a problem and then you got to solve that problem how are we going to solve that problem so I like to present it as what's your plan anytime they have a problem 8-year-old kids 15year old kids I just say what's your plan to solve this and then I like to hear their plan and let me know if you want to brainstorm it but I thought it was a very interesting super interesting discussion I I would say overall my kids are very happy the household is very happy everybody gets along everybody loves each other yeah some of them are way ahead of their peers nobody's behind in anything that matters nobody seems unhealthy in any obvious way no one has aberant eating habits I haven't even found an really an aberrate Behavior that's out of line so it's all good self correct me it's like a i wor I worry a lot about this like iPad situation I see my kids on an iPad and it's almost like unless they're doing an interactive project if they end up watching says says the guy who has a video game theme in the background that was interactive who probably and who probably grew up playing video games nonstop and probably spends 9 hours a day on his screen just called a phone so yeah yeah it's the same thing man well I mean I feel like watch is it but do they watch shows no there a h there there's a hypocrisy to picking up your phone and then saying to your kid no you can't use your iPad I grew up playing video games non-stop in video games when I was older and I was an avid gamer until just a few years ago well I'm not I'm not critic izing the the iPad I was obviously on a computer since I was four years old so I totally get it and I think the question for me is like but I didn't have the ability to play a 30 minute show and then play the next 30 minute show and the next 30 minute show and then sit there for two hours and just have a show playing the whole time I was you know interacting on the computer and doing stuff and building stuff which was a little different me from a use case perspective yeah we we we did use to control their YouTube access although now we don't do that the only thing I ask them is that they put on captions when they're watching YouTube so it helps their reading they learn to read fast good tip yeah I like that one I will say that one of my kids is really into YouTube the other two are not like they just got over it and to the extent that they use YouTube it's mostly because they're looking up videos on their favorite games they want to know how to be better at a game all right let's keep moving through this docket we have David Sachs with us here so uh David give us your philosophy of parenting okay next item on the docket let's go talk about some real issues show is not a parenting show a parenting show I asked D what's your parenting philosophy he said oh I set up their trust four years ago so he's done he's good trust is set up everything's good g r a t check you're all set guys let me know how it works out all right speaking of working out we've got a vice president who isn't cuckoo for Coco Puffs and who actually understands what AI is JD Vance gave a great speech I watched it myself he talked about AI in Paris this was on Tuesday at the AI action Summit whatever that is and he gave a 15minute banger of a speech he talked about over regulating Ai and America's intention to dominate this and we happen to have with US Naval the Zar the Zar of AI so before I go into all the details about the speech I don't steal your thunder sax this this uh Speech had a lot of uh verbage a lot of ideas that I've heard before that maybe we've all talked about maybe tell us a little bit about how this all came together and how proud you are I mean gosh having a vice president who understands AI is just it's mind-blowing he could speak on a topic that's topical credibly this was an awesome moment for America I think what are you implying there JC I'm implying you have workshopped it with him no or that he's smart both of those things the vice president wrote the speech or at least directed all of it so the ideas came from him I'm not going to take any credit whatsoever for this okay well it was on point maybe you could talk about I agree it was on point I think it was a very well crafted and well- delivered speech he made four main points about the Trump administration's approach to AI he's going to ensure this is point one that American AI continues to be the gold standard fantastic check two he says that the administration understands that excessive regulation could kill AI just as it's taking off and he did this in front of all the EU Elites who love regulation did it on their home court and then he said number three AI must remain free from ideological bias as we've talked about here on this program and then number four the White House he said will quote maintain a pro-worker growth path for AI so that it can be a potent tool for job creation in the US so what are your thoughts on the four major bullet points and and his speech here in uh Paris well I think that the vice president you knew he was going to deliver an important speech as soon as he got up there and said that I'm here to talk about not AI safety but AI opportunity and to understand what a bracing statement that was and really almost like a shot across the bow you have to understand the history and context of these events for the last couple of years the last couple of these events have been exclusively focused on AI safety the last inperson event was in the UK at Bletchley Park and the whole conference was devoted to AI safety similarly the European AI regulation obviously is completely preoccupied with safety and trying to regulate Away safety risks before they happen similarly you had the Biden EO which was based around safety and then you have just the whole media coverage around AI which is preoccupied with all the risks from AI so to have the vice president get up there and say right off the bat that there are other things to talk about in respect to AI besides safety risk that actually there are huge opportunities there was a breath of fresh air and like I said kind of a shot across the bow and yeah you could almost see some of the eurocrats they needed their fainting couches after that eurocrats trudo looks like his dog just died so I think that was just a really important statement right off the bat to the context for the speech which is AI is a huge opportunity for all of us because really that point just has not been made enough and it's true there are risks but when you look at the media coverage and when you look at the dialogue that The Regulators have had around this they never talk about the opportunities it's always just around the wrist so I think that was a very important corrective and then like you said he went on to say that the United States has to win this AI race we want to be the gold standard we want to dominate that was my favorite part yeah and and by the way that language about dominating Ai and and winning the global race that is in president Trump's executive order from week one so this is very much elaborating on the official policy of of this Administration and the vice president that went on to say that he specified how we would do that right we have to win some of these key building block Technologies we want to win in chips we want to win in AI models we want to win in applications he said we need to build we need to unlock energy for these companies and then most of all we just need to be supportive towards them as opposed to regulating them to death and he had a lot to say about the the risk of overregulation how often it's big companies that want regulation he warned about regulatory capture which our friend Bill Gurley would like and he said that so basically having less regulation can actually be more fair can create a More Level Playing Field for small companies as well as big companies and then he he said to the Europeans that we want you to be partners with us we want to lead the world we want you to be our our partners and benefit from this technology that we're going to take the lead in creating but you also have to be a good partner to us and then he specifically called out the overregulation that Europeans have been engaged in he mentioned the Digital Services act which has acted as like a speed trap for American companies it's American companies who've been overregulation because the truth of the matter is that it's American technology companies that are winning the race and so when Europe passes these owner regulations they fall most of all on American companies and he's basically saying we need you to rebalance and and correct this because it's not fair and it's not smart policy and it's not going to help us collectively win this AI race and that kind of brings me just to to the last point is I don't think he mentioned China by name but clearly he talked about adversarial countries who are using AI to control their populations to engage in censorship and thought control and he basically painted a picture where it's like yeah you could go work with them or you could work with us and we we have hundreds of years of shared history together we believe in things like free speech hopefully and we want you to work with us but if you are going to work with us then you have to cooperate and we have to create a reasonable regulatory regime Nal did you see the uh Speech and your thoughts just generally on JD Vance and and having somebody like this you know representing us and wanting to win American exception very surprising very impressive I thought he was polite optimistic and just very forward-looking just it's what you would expect an entrepreneur or a smart investor to say so I was very impressed I think the idea that America should win great I think that we should not regulate I also agree with I'm not an AI Doomer I don't think AI is going to end the world that's a separate conversation but there's this religion that comes along in many faces which is that oh climate change is going to end the world a going to end the world asteroids going to end the world covid-19 is going to end the world and it just has a way of fixating your attention right it captures everybody's attention at once so it's a very seductive thing and I think in the case of AI it's really been overplayed by incentive bias you know motivated reasoning by the companies were ahead and they want to pull up the ladder behind them I I think they genuinely believe it I think they genuinely believe that there's safety risk but I think they're motivated to believe in those safety risks and then they pass that along but it's kind of a weird position because they have to say oh it's so dangerous that you shouldn't just let open source go at it and you should let just a few of us work with you on it but it's not so dangerous that a private company can't own the whole thing right because if it was truly the Manhattan Project if they were building nuclear weapons you wouldn't want one company to own that no Sam wman famously said that AI will capture the light cone of all future value in other words like all value ever created at the speed of light from here will be captured by AI so if that's true then I think open- Source AI really matters and little Tech AI really matters the problem is that the nature of training these models is highly centralized they benefit from supercomputer clustered compute so it's not clear how any decentralized model can compete so to me the real issue boils down to is how do you push AI forward while not having just a very small number of players control the entire thing and we thought we had that solution with the original open AI which was a nonprofit was supposed to do for Humanity but now because of they want to incentivize the team and they want to raise money they have to privatize at least a part of it although it's not clear to me why they need to privatize the whole thing like why they need to buy out the nonprofit portion you could leave a nonprofit portion and you could have the private portion for the incentives but I think that the the real challenge is how do you keep AI from naturally centralizing because all the economics and the technology underneath are centralizing in nature if you really think you're going to create God do you want to put God on a leash with one entity controlling God that to me is the real fear not I'm not scared of AI I'm scared of what a very small number of people who control AI do to the rest of us for our own good because that's how it always works it's well said probably should go with the Greek model having many gods and uh Heroes as well freeberg you heard the uh JD van speech I assume what are your thoughts on overregulation and uh maybe to nal's point one person owning this versus open source I think that there's this kind of big definition of social balance right now on what I would call techno optimism and techno pessimism generally people sort of fall into one of those two camps generally speaking techno optimists I would say are folks that believe that accelerating outcomes with AI with automation with bioengineering manufacturing semiconductors Quantum Computing nuclear energy Etc will usher in this era of abundance by making by creating leverage which is what technology gives us technology will make things cheaper and it will be deflationary and it will give everyone more so it creates abundance the challenge is that people who already have a lot worry more about the exposure to the downside than they desire the upside and so you know the techn pessimists are generally like the EU and large Parts frankly of the United States are worried about the loss of X the loss of jobs the loss of this the loss of that whereas countries like China and India are more excited about the opportunity to create wealth the opportunity to create leverage the opportunity to create abundance for their people you know GDP per capita in in the EU $60,000 a year GDP per capita in the United States like 82,000 but GDP per capita in India is 2500 and China is 12,600 there's a greater incentive in those countries uh to manifest upside than there is for the United States and the EU who are more worried about manifesting downside and so it is a very difficult kind of social battle that's underway I do think like over time those governments and those countries and those social systems that Embrace these Technologies are going to become more capitalist and they're going to require less government control and intervention in job creation the economy payments to people and so on and the countries that are more techn pessimistic are unfortunately going to find themselves asking for greater government control govern intervention in markets governments creating jobs government making payments to people government's effectively running the economy my personal view obviously is that I'm a very strong advocate for technology acceleration because I think in nearly every case in human history when a new technology has emerged we've largely found ourselves assuming that the technology works in the framework of today or of yester year the automobile came along and no one envisioned that everyone in the United States would own an automobile and therefore you would need to create all of these new Industries like mechanics and car dealerships roads all the people servicing building roads and all the other industry that emerg and it's it's very hard for us to sit here today and say okay AI is going to destroy jobs what's it going to create and be right I think we're very likely going to be wrong whatever estimations we we give the area that I think is most underestimated is large technical projects that seem technically infeasible today that AI can unlock for example habitation in in the oceans like it's very difficult for us to Envision like creating cities underwater and creating cities in the oceans or creating cities on the moon or creating cities on mars or finding new places to live those are like technically people might argue oh that sounds stupid I don't want to go do that but at the end of the day like human civilization will drive us to want to do that but those technically are very hard to pull off today but AI can unlock a new set of Industries to enable those transitions so I think we really get it wrong when we try and assume the technology as a transplant for last year or last century and then we kind of become techn pessimists because we're worried about losing what we have are you a techn pessimist are you Optimist because I you uh bring up the downside of awful lot here on the program but you are working every day in a very optimistic way to breed you know better strawberries and potatoes for folks so you're a little bit of a no I have no techn pessimism whatsoever I try and point out why the other side is acting the way they are got it okay putting it in full context and what I'm trying to highlight is I think that that framework is wrong I think that that frame transology the way operating the way about and it creates this you know because of this manifestation about worrying about downside it creates this fear that that creates regulation like we see in the EU and as a result China's GDP will scale while the euus will stagnate if that's where they go that's my assessment or my opinion on what will happen chath you want to wrap this up for us what are your thoughts on JD I'll give you two okay the first is I would say this is a really interesting moment where I would call this the tale of two vice presidents very early in the Biden Administration kamla was dispatched on an equally important topic at that time which was illegal immigration and she went to Mexico and Guatemala and so you actually have a really interesting AB test here you have both vice presidents dealing with what we're in that moment incredibly important issues and I think that JD was focused he was precise he was ambitious and even the part of the press that was very supportive of kamla couldn't find a lot of very positive things to say about her and the feedback was it was Meandering she was ducking questions she didn't answer the questions that she was asked very well and it's so interesting because it's a bit of a microcosm then to what happened over these next four years and her campaign quite honestly which you could have taken that window of that feedback and unfortunately for her it just continued to be very consistent so that was one observation I had because I heard him give the speech I heard her and I had this kind of moment where I was like wow two totally different people the second is on the substance of what JD said I said this on Tucker and I'll just simplify all of this into a very basic framework which is if you want a country to thrive it needs to have economic Supremacy and it needs to have military Supremacy in the absence of those two things societies crumble and the only thing that underpins those two things is technological Supremacy and we see this today so on Thursday what happened with Microsoft they had a $24 billion contract with the United States Army to deliver some whizbang thing and they realized that they couldn't deliver it and so what did they do they went to andril now why did they go to andril because andril has the technological Supremacy to actually execute a few weeks ago we saw some attempts at technological Supremacy from the Chinese with respect to deep seek so I think that this is a very simple existential battle those who can harness and govern the things that are technologically Superior will win and it will drive economic vibrancy and Military Supremacy which then creates safe strong societies that's it so from that perspective JD nailed it he saw the forest from the trees he said exactly what I think needed to be said and put folks on notice that you're either on the ship or you're off the ship and I think that that was really good yeah and there was like um a little secondary conversation that emerged Sachs that I I would love to engage you with if you're willing which is this Civil War quote unquote between maybe Maga 1.0 magga 2.0 techies ver in the Maga party like ourselves and maybe the core Maga folks we can pull up the Tweet here in JD's own word and he's been engaging people in his own words it's very clear that he's writing these tweets a distinct difference between other politicians and this Administration and they just tell you what they think here it is I'll try and write something to address this in detail this is JD Vance's tweet but I think this Civil War is overstated though yes there are some real divergences between the populace I would describe that as magga and the techies but briefly in general I dislike substituting American labor for cheap labor my views on immigration and offshoring flow from this I like growth and productivity gains and this informs my view on Tech and regulation when it comes to AI specifically the risks are number one overstate to your point Nal or two difficult to avoid one of my any real concerns for instance is about Consumer Fraud that's a valid reason to worry about safety but the other problem is much worse if a pure nation is 6 months ahead of the US on AI again I'll try and say more and this is JD going right at I think one of the more controversial topic sacks that the administration is dealing with and has dealt with when it comes to immigration and Tech because these two things are dovetailing each other if we lose millions of driver jobs which we will in the next 10 years just like we lost millions of cashier jobs well that's going to impact how our nation and many of the voters look at the border and immigration we might not be able to let as many people immigrate here if we're losing millions of jobs to Ai and self-driving cars what are your thoughts on him engaging this directly saxs well the first point he's making there is about wage pressure right which is when you throw open our Borders or you throw open American markets products that can be made in foreign countries by much cheaper labor that's not held to the same standards the same minimum wage or the same Union rules or the same safety standards that American labor is and has a huge cost Advantage then you're creating wage pressure for American workers and he's opposed to that and I think that is an important point because I think the way that the media or neoliberals like to portray this argument is that somehow mag's resistance to unlimited immigration is somehow based on xenophobia or something like like that no it's based on bread and butter kitchen table issues which is if you have this ridiculous open border policy it's inevitably going to create a lot of wage pressure for people at the bottom of the pyramid so I think JD is making that argument but and this is point two he's saying I'm not against productivity growth so technology is good because it enables all of our workers to improve their productivity and that should result in better wages because workers can produce more the value of their labor goes up if they have more tools to be productive so there's no contradiction there and I think he's explaining why there isn't a contradiction a point I would add he doesn't make this point in that tweet but I would add is that one of the problems that we've had over the last I don't know 30 years is that we have had tremendous productivity growth in the US but labor has not been able to capture it all that benefit has basically gone to Capital or to companies and I think a big part of the reason why is because we've had this largely unrestricted immigration policy so I think if you were to Tamp down on immigration if you were to stop the illegal immigration then labor might be able to capture more of the benefits of productivity growth and that would be a good thing it' be a more equitable distribution of the gains from productivity and from technology and that I think would help Tamp down this growing conflict that you see between technologists and the rest of the country or certainly the heartland of the country nval this is a okay you want to add anything else David sorry well I think just the final point he makes in that tweet is that he talks about how we live in a world in which there are other countries that are competitive and specifically he he doesn't mention China but he says we have a pure competitor and it's going to be a much worse world if they end up being six months ahead of us on AI rather than six months behind that is a really important point to keep in mind I think that the whole Paris AI Summit took place against the backdrop of this recognition because just a few weeks ago we had deep seek and it's really clear that China is not a year behind us they're hot on our heels or only maybe months behind us and so if we hobble ourselves with unnecessary regulations if we make it more difficult for our AI companies to compete that doesn't mean that China's going to follow suit and copy us they're going to take advantage of that fact and they're going to win all right nval this seems to be one of the main issues of our time four of the five people on this podcast right now are immigrants so we have this amazing in America this is a country built by immigrants for immigrants do you think that should change now in the face of job destruction which I know you've been tracking self-driving pretty acutely we both have an interest there I think over the years you know what's the solution here if we're going to see a bunch of job displacement which will happen for certain jobs we all we all kind of know that should we shut the border and not let the next Nal chamat Max and freedberg into the country well let me let me declare my biases up front I'm a first generation immigrant I moved here when I was 9 years old rather my parents did and then I naturalized citizen so obviously I'm in favor of some level of immigration that said I'm assimilated I consider myself an American first and foremost I bleed red white and blue I believe in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution first and second and fourth and all the proper amendments I get up there every July 4th and I deliberately defend the Second Amendment on Twitter at which point half my followers Go Bananas you know cuz you're because I'm not supposed to I'm supposed to be a good immigrant right and and carry the usual set of coherent leftist policies globalist policies so I think that legal High skill immigration with room and time for assimilation makes sense you want to have a brain drain on the best and brightest coming to the freest country in the world to build technology and to help civilization move forward and you know as chth was saying economic power and military power is Downstream of technology in fact even culture is Downstream of Technology look at what the birth control pill did for example to culture or what the automobile did to culture or what radio and television did to culture and then the internet so technology drives everything and if you look at wealth wealth is a set of physical Transformations that you can affect and that's a combination of capital and knowledge and the bigger input to that is knowledge and so the US has become the home of knowledge creation thanks to bringing in the best and brightest you could even argue deep Seek part of the reason why we lost that is because a bunch of those kids they studied in the US but then we sent them back home right so I think you absolutely is that actually accurate that they were uh yeah yeah yeah some a few of them really oh my God that's like exhibit a wow I didn't know that so I think you absolutely have to split skilled assimilated immigration which is a small set and it has to be both they have to both be skilled and they have to become Americans that oath is not meaningless right it has to mean something so skilled assimilated immigration you have to separate that from just open borders whoever can wander in just come on in that that latter part makes no sense if the Biden administration had only been letting in people with 150 IQs we wouldn't have this debate right now the reason why we're having this debate is because they just opened the border and let millions and millions of people in it was to their advantage to conflate legal and illegal immigration so every time You' be like well we can't just open the Border say what about Elon what about this and they would just parade if they were just letting Elon and the Jensen and freed bgs we wouldn't be having the same conversation today the correlation between open borders and wage suppression is irrefutable we know that data and I think that the Democrats for whatever logic committed an incredible error in basically undermining their core cohort I want to go back to what you said because I think it's super important there is a new political calculus on the field and I agree with you I think that the the three cohorts of the future are the asset light working in middle class that's cohort number one there are probably 100 to 150 million of those folks then there are patriotic business owners and then there's leaders in Innovation those are the three and I think that what Maga gets right is they found the middle ground that intersects those three cohorts of people and so every time you see this sort of left versus right dichotomy it's totally miscast and it sounds discordant to so many of us because that's not how any of us identify right and I think that that's a very important observation because the policies that we adapt will need to reflect those three cohorts what is the common ground amongst those three and on that point nval is right there's not lot that those three would say is wrong with a very targeted form of extremely useful legal immigration of very very very smart people who agree to assimilate and be a part of America I mean I'm so glad you said it the way you said it like I remember growing up where my parents would try to pretend that they were in Sri Lanka and sometimes I would get so frustrated I'm like if you want to be in Sri Lanka go back to Sri Lanka I want to be Canadian because it was easier for me to make friends it was easier for me to have a life I was trying my best I wanted to be Canadian and then when I moved to the United States 25 years ago I wanted to be American and I feel that I'm American now and I'm proud to be an American and I think that's what you want you want people that embrace it doesn't mean that we can't dress up in a show AR CES every now and then but the point is like what do you believe and where is your loyalty freeberg we used to have this concept of in a Melting Pot of this assimilation and that was a good thing then it became cultural appropriation we we kind of made a right turn here where where do you stand on this recruiting the best and brightest and forcing them to assimilate making sure that they're down Jason find the people that care to be here yeah let me res that uh I reject the premise this whole conversation wait wait hold on look I'm look I'm a first generation American who moved here when I was five and became a citizen when I was 10 and yes I'm fully American and that's the only country I have any loyalty to but I the the premise that I reject here is that somehow an AI conversation leads to an immigration conversation because millions of jobs are going to be lost we don't know that that's also true I agree you're making a huge assumption buying into the dorismond of jobs that is not those are fact not evidence I think any jobs have any jobs been lost by AI let's be real we've had AI for two and a half years and I think it's great but so far it's a better search engine and it helps high school kids cheat on their essays I mean you don't believe that self driving is coming hold on a second Sach you don't believe that Millions but but hold on those those driver jobs weren't even there 10 years ago Uber came along and created all these driver jobs door Dash created all these driver jobs so what technology does yes technology destroys jobs but it replaces them with opportunities that are even better and then either you can go capture that opportunity yourself or an entrepreneur will come along and create something that allows you to capture those opportunities AI is a productivity tool it increases the productivity of a worker it allows and do more creative work and less repetitive work as such it makes them more valuable yes there is some retraining involved but not a lot these are natural language computers you can talk to them in plain English and they talk back to you in plain English but I think David is absolutely right I think we will see job creation by AI that will be as fast or faster than job destruction you saw this even with the internet like YouTube came along look at all these YouTube streamers and influencers that didn't used to be a job new jobs really opportunities cuz job is a wrong word job implies someone else has to give it to me and sort of like their handed out it's a zero some game forget all that it's opportunities after covid look at how many people are making money by working from home in mysterious little ways on the internet that you can't even quite grasp here's the way I categorize it okay is that whenever you have a new technology you get productivity gains you get some job disruption meaning that part of your job may go away but then you get other parts that are new and hopefully more elevated you know more interesting and then there is some job loss I just think that the third category will follow the historical Trend which is that the first two categories are always bigger and you end up with more net productivity and more net wealth creation and we've seen no evidence to date that that's not going to be the case now it's true that AI is about to get more powerful you're going to see a whole new wave of what are called agents this year a agentic products are able to do more for you but there's no evidence yet that those things are going to be completely unsupervised and replace people's jobs so you know I think that we have to see how this technology evolves and I think one of the mistakes of let's call it the European approach is assuming that you can predict the future with perfect accuracy with such good accuracy that you can create regulations today that are going to avoid all these risks in the future and we just don't know enough yet to be able to do that that's level of certainty I agree with you and the companies that are promulgating that view is what nval said those that have an economic vested interest in at least convincing the next incremental investor that this could be true because they want to make the claim that all the money should go to them so they could Hoover up all the economic gains and that's that is the part of the cycle we're in so if you if you actually stratify these reactions there's the small startup companies in AI that believe there's a productivity leap to be had and that there's going to be Prosperity everybody on the sidelines watching and then a few companies that have an extremely vested interest in them being a gatekeeper because they need to raise the next 30 or $40 billion doar trying to convince people that that's true and if you view it through that lens you're right saxs we have not accomplished anything yet that proves that this is going to be cataclysmically bad and if anything right now history would tell you it's probably going to be like the past which is generally productive and a cre Society yeah and just to bring it back back to JD's speech which is where we started I think it was a quintessentially American speech in the sense that he said we should be optimistic about the opportunities here which I think is basically right and we want to lead we want to take advantage of this we don't want to hobble it we don't even fully know what it's going to be yet we are going to Center workers we want to be Pro worker and I think that if there are downsides for workers then we can mitigate those things in the future but it's too early to say that we know what the program should be it's more about a statement of values at this point do you think it's too early freeberg given optimists and all these robots being created what we're seeing in self-driving you've talked about the ramp up with wh to actually say we will not see millions of jobs and millions of people get displaced from those jobs what do you think freeberg I'm curious your thoughts because that is the counterargument my experience erence in the workplace is that AI tools that are doing things that an analyst or knowledge worker was doing with many hours in the past is allowing them to do something in minutes that doesn't mean that they spend the rest of the day doing nothing what's great for our business and for other businesses like ours that can leverage AI tools is that those individuals can now do more and so our throughput our productivity as an organization has gone up and we can now create more things faster so whatever the product is that my company makes we can now make more things more quickly we can do more development you're seeing it on the ground correct at a hollow and I'm seeing it on the ground and I don't think that this like transplantation of how bad AI will be for jobs is the right framing as much as it is about an acceleration of productivity and this is why I go back to the point about GDP per capita and GDP growth countries societies areas that are interested or industries that are interested in accelerating output in accelerating productivity the ability to make stuff and sell stuff are going to rapidly Embrace these tools because it allows them to do more with less and I think that's what I really see on the ground and then the second point I'll make is the one that I mentioned earlier and I'll wrap up with a third point which is I think we're underestimating the new industries that will emerge drastically dramatically there is going to be so much new sh that we are not really thinking deeply about right now that we could do a whole another 2hour brainstorming session on on what AI unlocks in terms of large scale projects that are traditionally or typically are today held back because of the constraints on the technical feasibility of these projects and that ranges from accelerating to new semiconductor technology to Quantum Computing to Energy Systems to transportation to habitation etc etc there's all sorts of transformations in every industry that's possible as these tools come online and that will spurn insane new Industries the most important point is the third one which is we don't know the overlap of job loss and job creation if there is one and so the rate at which these new technologies impact and great new markets but I think nval is right I think that what happens in capitalism and in free societies is that capital and people rush to fill the hole of new opportunities that emerge because of AI and that those grow more quickly than the old bubbles deflate so if there's a deflationary effect in terms of job need in other Industries I think the loss will happen slower then the rush to take advantage of creating new things will happen on the other side so my bet is probably on the order of I think new things will be created faster than old things will be lost I think actually as a quick side note to that the fastest way to help somebody get a job right now if you know somebody in the market who's looking for a job the best thing you can do is say hey go download the AI tools and just start talking to them just start using them in any way and then you can walk into any employer in almost any field and say hey I understand Ai and they'll hire you on the exactly nval you and I watched this happen we had a front row seat to it back in the day when you were doing Venture hacks and I was doing open Angel Forum we had to like fight to find five or 10 companies a month then the cost of running these companies went down they went down massively from five million to start a company to two then to 250k then to 100K I think what we're seeing is like three things concurrently you're going to see all these jobs go away for automation self-driving cars cashier Etc but we're going to also see static team size at places like Google they're just not hiring because they're just having the existing bloated employee base learn the tools but I don't know if you're seeing this the number of startups able to get a product to Market with two or three people and get to a million in revenue is booming what are you seeing in the startup landscape definitely what you're saying in that there's leverage but at the same time the I think the more interesting part is that new startups are enabled that could not exist otherwise uh my last startup air chat could not have existed without AI because we needed a transcription and translation even the current thing I'm working on it's not an AI company but it cannot exist without AI it is relying on AI even at angelist we're significantly adopting AI like everywhere you turn it's more opportunity more opportunity more opportunity and people like to go on uh Twitter or the artist formerly known as Twitter and and and basically they like to exaggerate like oh my God we've hit AGI oh my my God I just replaced my all my mid-level Engineers oh my god I've stopped hiring to me that's like moronic the two valid ones are the onean entrepreneur shows where there's like one guy or one gal and they're like scaling up like crazy things to AI or there are people who are embracing Ai and being like I need to hire and I need to hire anyone who can even spell AI like anyone who's even used AI just come on in come on in again I would say the easiest way to see that AI is not taking jobs of creating opportunities is go brush up on your learn a little bit watch a few videos use the AI Tinker with it and then go reapply for that job that rejected you and watch how they pull you in in 2023 an economist named Richard Baldwin said AI won't take your job it's someone using AI that will take your job because they know how to use it better than you and that's kind of become a meme and you see it floating around X but I think there's a lot of Truth in that you know as long as you remain adaptive and you keep learning and you learn how to take advantage of these tools you should do better and if you wall yourself off from the technology and don't take advantage of it that's when you put yourself at risk another way to think about it is these are natural language computers so everyone who's intimidated by computers before should no longer be intimidated you don't need to program anymore in some esoteric language or learn some obscure mathematics to be able to use these you can just talk to them and they talk back to you that's magic the new programming language is English chath you want to wrap us up here on this opportunity slash displacement slash chaos I was gonna say this before but I I'm pretty unconvinced anymore that you should bother even learning many of the hard sciences and maths that we used to as underpinnings like I used to believe that the right thing to do was for everybody to go into engineering I'm not necessarily as convinced as I used to be because I used to say well that's great first principles thinking etc etc and you're going to get trained in a toolkit that will scale and I'm not sure that that's true I think like you can you can use these agents and you can use deep research and all of a sudden they replace a lot of that skill so what's left over it's creativity it's judgment it's history it's psychology it's all of these other sort of like softare leadership communication that allow you to manipulate these models in constructive ways because when you think of like the prompt engineering that gets you to Great answers it's actually just thinking in totally different orthogonal ways and nonlinearly so that's my last thought which is it does open up the aperture meaning for every smart mathematical genius there's many many many other people who have high EQ and all of a sudden this tool actually takes the skill away from the person with just a high IQ and says if you have these other skills now you can compete with me equally and I think that that's liberating for a lot of people I'm in the camp of more opportunity you know I I got to watch the movie industry a whole bunch when the digital cameras came out and more people started making documentaries more people started making independent film shorts and then of course the Youtube Revolution people started making videos on YouTube or podcasts like this and if you look at what happened with like the special effects industry as well we need far fewer people to make a Star Wars movie to make a Star Wars series to make a Marvel series as we've seen now we can get the Mandalorian and shoka and all these other series with smaller numbers of people and they look better than obviously the original Star Wars series or even the prequels so there's there's going to be so many more opportunities we're now making more TV shows more series everything we wanted to see of every little character that's the same thing that's happening in startups I can't believe that there is a app now nval called slopes just for uh skiing and there are 20 really good apps for just meditation and there are 10 really good ones just for fasting like we're going down this long taale of opportunity and there'll be plenty of million to10 million businesses for us you know people learn to use these tools I love how that's the thing that tips you over which one you get an extra Marvel movie or an extra Star Wars show so that tips you over I think for a lot of people it's it feels great that AI may take over the world but I'm gonna get next to Star Wars movie so I'm I'm cool yeah I mean it's are you not entertained want to final point on this is look I mean given the choice between the two categories of techno Optimist and techn pessimist I'm definitely in The Optimist camp and I I think and I think we should be but I I think there's actually a third category that I would submit which is techno realist which is technology is going to happen trying to stop it is like ordering the tides to stop if we don't do it somebody else will China's going to do it or somebody else will do it and it's better for us to be in control of the technology to be the leader rather than passively waiting for it to happen to us and I just think that's always true it's better for businesses to be proactive and take the lead disrupt themselves instead of waiting for someone else to do it and I think it's better for countries and I think you did see this theme a little bit I mean these are my own views I don't want to ascribe them to the vice president but you did see I think a hint of the Techno realism idea in his speech and in his tweet which is look AI is going to happen we might as well be the leader if we don't we could lose in a key category that has implications for National Security for our economy for many things so that's just not a world we want to live in so I think a lot of this debate is sort of academic because whether you're an optimist or pessimist is sort of glass half empty half full the question is just is it going to happen or not and I think the answer is yes so then we want to control it this just you know let's just boil it down there's not a tremendous amount of choice in this I think I would agree heavily with one point and I would just tweak another the point I would agree with is that it's going to happen anyway and that's what deep seek proved you can turn off the flow of chips to them and you can turn off the flow of talent what do they do they just get more efficient and they exported it back to us they sent us back the best open source model when our guys were staying closed source for safety reasons and exactly and I deep explo safety of their Equity deep seek exploded the fallacy that the US has a monopoly in this category and that somehow therefore we can slow down the train and that we have total control over the train and I think what deep seek showed is no if we slow down the train they're just going to win yeah the part the part where I TR to tweak a little bit is the idea that we are going to win by we when you say America the problem is that the best way to win is to be as open as distributed as Innovative as possible if this all ends up in the control of one company they're actually going to be slower to innovate than if there's a dynamic system and that dynamic system by its nature will be open it will leak to China it will leak to India but these things have powerful Network effects we know this about technology almost all Technologies has Network effects underneath and so even if you are open you're still going to win and you're still going to control you look at the internet that was all true for the internet right the internet's an open Technologies based on tons of Open Source Who are the Dom companies all the dominant companies are us companies because they were in the lead exactly right exactly right we we embrac the open internet we embrac the open internet right that was different yeah so there will be benefits for all of humanity and I think the vice president's speech was really clear that look we want you guys to be on board we want to be good Partners however there are definitely going to be winners economically militarily and in order to be one of those winners you have to be a leader who's going to get to AGI first nval is it going to be an open source who's going to win is it going to be open source or closed Source who's going to win the day if we're sitting here 5 10 years from now and we're looking at the top three language models lot of trouble for this but I don't think we know how to build AGI but that's that's a much longer discuss who's going to have the best model five years from hold on I I 100% agree with you I just think it's a different thing but what we're building are these incredible natural language computers and actually David in a very pithy way summarized the two big use cases it's search and it's homework it's paperwork uh it's it's really paperwork and a lot of these jobs that we're talking about disappearing are actually paperwork jobs they're paperwork shuffling these are madeup jobs like the federal government as we're finding out through Doge you know a third of it is like people digging holes of spoons and the another third are filling them back up they're filling up paperwork and then burying it in a m shaft they're buing M shaft Mountain yeah so I I I think a lot of these madeup jobs they got to go down the M shaft to get the paperwork when someone retires and bring it up you know what I'm going to get them some thumb drives we can increase the throughput of the elevator with some thumb drives it would be incredible what we found out is the the DMV has been running the government for the last 70 years it's been a compounding compounding that's that's really what's going on DMV is in charge I mean if the world ends in nuclear war God for bid the only thing that's be left will be the Cockroaches and then a bunch of like government work documents s report TPS reports down in the M shaft basically yeah let's take a moment everybody to thank our Zar we miss him we wish he could be here for the whole show and thank you Zar thank you to the Zar see you guys miss you we miss you little buddy I wish we could talk about Ukraine but we're not allowed get back to work we'll talk about it another time over cfee I'll see you in the comissary thanks for the invite bye man I'm so excited I'm nval saaks invited me to go to the the military mess I'm going to be in the commissary no he didn't J you invited yourself be honest I did yes I did I put it on his calendar to keep the conversation moving let me segue a point that came up that was really important into tariffs and the point is even though the internet was open the US won a lot of the internet a lot of us companies won the internet and they won that because we got there the firstest with the mostest as they say in the military and that matters because a a lot of Technology businesses have scale economies and network effects underneath even basic brand-based Network effects if you go back to the late 90s early 2000s very few people would have predicted that we would have ended up with Amazon basically owning all of e-commerce you would have thought it would have been a perfect competition and very spread out and that applies to how we end up with Uber as basically one taxi service or we end up with Airbnb meta Airbnb it's just Network effects Network effects Network effects rule the world around me but but when it comes to tariffs and when it comes to trade we act like Network effects don't exist the classic ricardian comparative advantage Dogma says that you should produce what you're best at I produce what I'm best at and we trade and then even if you want to charge me more for it if you want to impose tariffs for me to ship to you I should still keep tariffs down because I'm better off you're just selling me stuff cheaply great or if you want to subsidize your guys great you're selling me stuff cheaply the problem is that is not how most modern businesses work most modern businesses have Network effects as a simple thought experiment suppose that we have two countries right I'm China you're the US I start out by subsidizing all of my companies and industries that have Network effects so I'll subsidize Tik Tok I'll ban your social media but I'll push mine I will subsidize my semiconductors which tend do tend to have win or take-all in certain categories or I'll subsidize my drones and then B exactly byd self-driving whatever and then when I win I own the whole market and I can raise prices and if you try to start up a competitor then it's too late I've got Network effects or if I've got scale economies I can lower my price to zero crash you out of business no one in their right mind will invest and I'll raise prices right back up so you have to understand that certain industries have hesis or they have Network effects or they have economies of scale and these are all the interesting ones these are all the high margin businesses so in those if somebody is subsidizing or they're raising tariffs against you to protect your industries and let them develop you do have to do something you can't just completely back down what are your thoughts jamath about tariffs and network effects it does seem like we do want to have uh redundancy in supply chain so there are some exceptions here any um thoughts on how this might play out because yeah Trump brings up tus every 48 hours and then it doesn't seem like any of them land so I don't know I'm I'm still on my 72-hour Trump rule which is whatever he says wait 72 hours and and then maybe see if it actually comes to pass where do you stand on all these tariffs and tariff talk well I think the tariffs will be a plug are they coming absolutely the Quantum of them I don't know and I think that the way that you can figure out how extreme it will be it'll be based on what the legislative plan is for the budget so there's two paths right now path one which I think is a little bit more likely is that they're going to pass a slim down plan in the Senate just on border security and Military spending and then they'll kick the can down the road for probably another three or four months on the budget plan two is this one big beautiful bill that's irking its way through the house and there they're proposing trillions of dollars of cuts in that mode you're going to need to raise revenu somehow and especially if you're giving away tax breaks and the only way to do that is probably through tariffs or one way to do it is through tariffs my honest opinion Jason is that I think we're in a very complicated moment I think the Senate plan is actually on the margins more likely and better and the reason is because I think that Trump is better off getting the next 60 to 90 days of data I mean we're in a real pickle here we have persistent inflation we have a broken fed they are totally asleep at the switch and the thing that Yellen and Biden did which in hindsight now was extremely dangerous is they issued so much short-term paper that in totality we have $1 trillion dollar we need to finance in the next 6 to9 months so it could be the case that we have rates that are like five five and a quarter 5 a half% I think that that's extremely bad at the same time as inflation at the same time as delinquencies are ticking up so I think tariffs are probably going to happen but I think that Trump will have the most flexibility if he has time to see what the actual economic conditions will be which will be more clear in 3 four five months and so I almost think this big beautiful bill is actually counterproductive because I I'm not sure we're gonna have all the data we need to get it right fre B any thoughts on these tariffs you've been involved in the global uh Marketplace especially when it comes to produce and wheat and all this corn and everything what do you think the dynamic here is going to be or is it saber rattling and a tool for Trump the biggest buyer of us a exports is China China a exports are a major Revenue Source major income source and a major part of the economy for a large number of states and so there will be as there was in the first Trump presidency very likely very large transfer payments made Farmers because China is very likely going to tariff Imports or stop making import purchases altoe which is what happened during the first presidency when they did that the federal government I believe had transfer payments of north of $20 billion to Farmers this is a not negligible sum and it's a not- negligible economic effect because there's then a Rippling effect throughout the a economy so I think that's one key thing that I've heard folks talk about is the um the activity that's going to be needed to support the farm economy as the US's biggest a customer disappears in the early 20th century we didn't have an income tax and the federal revenue was almost entirely dependent on tariffs when tariffs were cut there was an expectation that there would be a decline in federal government revenue but what actually happened is volume went up so lower tariffs actually increased trade increase the size of the economies this is where a lot of economists take their basis in hey guys if we do these tariffs it's actually going to shrink the economy it's going to cause a reduction in trade the counterbalancing effect is one that has not been tested in economics right which is what's going to happen if simultaneously we reduce the income tax and reduce the corporate income tax and basically increased Capital flows through reduced taxation while doing the Tariff implementation at the same time so it's a grand economic experiment and I think we'll learn a lot about what's going to happen here as this all moves forward I do think ultimately these countries are going to capitulate to some degree and we're going to end up with some negotiated settlement that's going to hopefully not be too short-term impactful on the economies and the people and the jobs that are dependent on trade economy feels like it's in a very precarious place it does to asset holders obviously and obviously they've left it in a bad place in the last Administration and we shut down the entire country for a year over Co the bill for that has come due and that's reflected inflation I I think there are a couple other points in tariffs first is it's it's not just about money it's also about making sure we have functional middle class with good jobs because if you have a non-tariff world maybe all the gains go to the upper class and an underclass and then you can't have a functioning democracy when the average person is on one of those two extremes so I think that's one issue another is strategic Industries if you look at it today probably the largest defense contractor in the world is DJI they got all the drones even in Ukraine both sides are getting all their drone parts from DJI now they're getting it through different supply chain chain and so on but Ukrainian drones and Russian drones the vast majority of them are coming through China through DJI and we don't have that industry if we have a kinetic conflict right now and we don't have good drone supply chain internally in the US we're probably going to lose because those things are autonomous bullets that's the feature of all Warfare we're buying f-35s and the Chinese are building swarms of Nar scale at scale so we do have to re onore those critical Supply chains and what is a drone supply chain it's not just there's not thing called drone it's like Motors and semiconductors and Optics and lasers and just everything across the board so I think there are other good Arguments for at least reshoring some of these industries we need them and the the United States is very lucky and that it's very aaric we have all the resources we have all the supplies we can we can be Upstream of everybody with all the energy to the extent we're importing any energy that is a choice we made that is not because fundamentally we the energy yeah because of between all the oil resources and the natural gas and fracking combined with all the work we've done in nuclear fishing and small reactors we should absolutely be energy independ we should be running the table on it we should we should have AB a massive Surplus and hey you know if you if you're worried about you know couple of million of door Dash Uber drivers losing their jobs to automation like hey there's going to be factories to build these parts for these drones that we're going to need so there there's a lot of opportunity I guess for people and there is a difference between different kinds of jobs those kinds of jobs are better jobs building difficult things at scale physically that we need for both National Security and for Innovation th those are better jobs than you know paperwork writing essays for other people to read yeah or even driving cars all right listen I want to get to two more stories here we have a really interesting copyright story that I wanted to touch on Thompson Reuters just won the first major US AI copyright case and fair use played a major role in this decision this has huge implications for AI companies here in the United States obviously open Ai and the New York Times Getty Images versus stability we've talked about these but it's been a little while because the legal system takes a little bit of time and these are very complicated cases as we've talked about Thompson Reuters owns Westlaw if you don't know that it's kind of like Lexus Nexus it's one of the the legal databases out there that lawyers use to to find cases Etc uh and they have a paid product with summaries and Analysis of legal decisions back in 2020 this is two years before chat GPT reuter sued a legal research competitor called Ross for copyright infringement Ross had created an AI powered legal search engine sounds great but Ross had asked Westlaw if they would pay a license to its content for training wesla said no this all went back and forth and then Ross signed a similar deal with a company called Legal ease the problem is legal E's database was just cop copied and pasted from a bunch of Westlaw answers so Reuters Westlaw sued Ross in 2020 accusing the company of being vicariously liable for legal eases direct infringement super important Point anyway the judge originally favored Ross in fair use this week the judge reversed this ruling and found Ross liable noting that after further review fair use does not apply in this case this is the first major win and uh we debated this so here's a clip you know you heard it here first on the all-in Pod what I would say is you know when you look at that fair use Doctrine I've got a lot of experience with it you know the fourth Factor test I'm sure you're well aware of this is the effect of the use on the potential market and the value of the work if you look at the lawsuits that are starting to emerge it is Getty's right to then make derivative products based on their images I think we would all agree stable diffusion when they use these open web that is no excuse to use an open web crawler to avoid getting a license from the original own owner of that just because you can technically do it doesn't mean you're allowed to do it in fact the open Web projects that provide these say explicitly we do not give you the right to use this you have to then go read the copyright laws on each of those websites and on top of that if somebody were to steal the copyrights of other people put it on the open web which is happening all day long you still if you're building a derivative work like this you still need to go get it so it's no excuse that I took some site in Russia that did a bunch of copyright violation and then I indexed them for my training model so I've think this is going to result fre free can you shoot me in the face and let me know when this okay oh great I feel same way same way now exactly I know me too yeah okay good good segment let's move on well since these guys don't give a  about copyright holders what do you think about uh you know I'm so glad you're here nval to actually talk about the topics these two other guys I'm going go thinner limb I'm going to go and even thinner Limb and say I largely agree with you I think it's a bit Rich to crawl the open web Hoover up all the data offer direct substitution for a lot of use cases because you know now you start and end with the AI model it's not even like you link out like Google did and then you just close off the models for safety reasons I think if you trained on the open web your model should be open source yeah absolutely that would be a fine thing I have a prediction here I think this is all going to wind up wind up like the Naps or Spotify case for people who don't know Spotify pays I think 65 cents on the dollar to the original Underwriters of of that content the music industry and they figured out a way to make a business and Napster is roadkill I think that there is a nonzero chance like it might be five or 10% that opening eye is going to lose the New York Times lawsuit and they're going to lose it hard and there going to be injunctions and I think it's the settlement might be that these language models especially the closed ones are going to have to pay some percentage in a negotiated settlement of their revenue half 2/3 to the content holders and this could make the content industry have a massive massive uplift and a and a and a massive Resurgence I think that the problem there's an example on the other side of this which is that there's a company that provides technical support for Oracle third party company and Oracle has tried times to soo them into Oblivion using copyright infringement as part of the justification and it's been a PA over the stock for a long time the company's name is riny Street don't ask me why I it's on my radar but I just I've been looking at it and they lost this huge lawsuit Oracle one and then it went to appella court and then it was all vacated why am I bringing this up I think that the legal Community has absolutely no idea how these models work because you can find one case that goes one way and one case that goes the other and what I would say should become standard reading for anybody bringing in of these lawsuits there's an Incredible video that carpath just dropped that Andre just dropped where he does like this deep dive into llms and he explains chat GPT from the ground up it's on YouTube it's three hours it's excellent and it's very difficult to watch that and not get to the same conclusion that you guys did I'll just leave it at that H I tend to agree with this there's also a good old video by ilas sover where he he was a I believe the founding Chief scientist or CTO of open Ai and he talks about how these these large language models are basically extreme compressors and he models them entirely as their ability to compress and they're L com compression exactly lossy L compression exactly exactly and Google got sued for fair use back in the day but the way they managed to get past the argument was they were always linking back to you they showed tiny sent you the traffic they sent you the traffic this is lossy compression it is absolutely I'm now on your p i I hate to say this Jason I agree with you you were you were right you were right that's all I wanted to hear all these years that's all I wanted shaking my head when I saw those videos cuz I was like oh man Jason was right Jason was right oh my God no I just I've been through this so many times that these I think this is you know rer Murdoch said we should hold the line with Google and not allow them to index our content without a license and Google navigated it successfully and and they were able to to not get him to stop I think what's happened now is that the New York Times remembers that they they all remember losing their content and these Snippets and the one box to Google and they couldn't get that Genie back in the bottle I think the New York Times realizes this is their payday I think the New York Times will make more money from licenses from llms then they will make from advertising or subscriptions eventually this will renew the model almost I think the New York Times content is worthless to an llm but that's a different story I think the actual Val cont political reason whatever but I can tell you as a user I loved the wire cutter I think you knew Brian and everybody over the wire cutter we that was like fair enough yeah wire cutter what a great product I used to pay for the New York Times I no longer pay for the New York Times my main reason was I would go to the wire cut yeah and I would just buy whatever they told me to buy now I go to chat gbt which I pay forb tells me what to buy based on the wire cutter so it's it and I'm already paying for it so I stop paying for it I philosophically disagree with all of your nonsense on this topic all three of you are wrong and I'll tell you why number one if information is out in the open internet I I believe it's accessible and it's viewable and I view an llm or a WebCrawler as basically being a human that's reading and can store information in its brain can if it's out there in the open if it's behind a pay wall 100% if it's behind some protected password wait wait wait wait David David in that in that case can a Google crawler just crawl entire site and serve it on Google why can't they do that there so here here's the fair use the fair use is you cannot copy you cannot repeat the content you cannot take the content and repeat it that is how the law is currently written but now what I have is I have a tool that that can remix it with 50 other pieces of similar content and I can change the words slightly and maybe even translate into a different language so where does it stop do you know the musical artist girl talk we should have done a girl talk track here today he's got musical taste this guy oh good here we go he basically take takes small samples of popular tracks and he made and he got sued for the same problem there was another guy named white panda I believe had the same problem Ed Sharon got sued for this yeah but but their entire sites like stack Overflow and Wiki that have basically disappeared now because you can just swallow them all up and you can just spit it all back out in chat GPT with slight changes so I I think that the the the fair how much of a slight change is exactly the right question how much are you changing yeah so that's the question are and it actually boils down to the AGI question are these things actually intelligent and are they learning or are they compressing and regurgitating that's the question I wonder this about humans and that's why I bring up the white panda the girl talk in audio but also visual art there was always artists and all even in classical music I don't know if you guys are classical music people but right there was there's a demonstration of how you know one composer learned from the next and that you can actually track the music as kind of being standing on the shoulders of the prior and the same is true in almost all art forms in almost all human knowledge and Media communication it's very hard to figure that out well that's exactly right that's the hard it's very hard to figure that out which is why I come back to there's only one of two stable solutions to this and it's going to happen anyway if we don't crawl it the Chinese will crawl it right deep seek prove that so there's only one of two stable Solutions either you pay the copyright holders which I actually think doesn't work and the reason is because someone in China will crawl it and they just dump the weights right so they can just crawl and com and dump the compressed weights or if you crawl make it open at least contribute something back to open source right you crawled open data contributed back to open source and the people who don't want to be crawled they're going to have to go to a huge length to protect their data now everybody knows to protect the data yeah well thing is happening here I have a book out from Harper business on the shelf behind me and uh I'm getting 2500 smackaroos for the next three years for uh Microsoft indexing it so they're going out and they're licensing this stuff and um they're going $2500 so your book literally I'm getting $2,500 for three years a bunch of Harper to go into an llm to go into Microsoft specifically and you know what I'm going to sign it I decided because I just want to set the precedent maybe next time it's 10,000 maybe next time it's 250 I don't care I just want to see people have their content respected and I'm just hoping that Sam wman loses this lawsuit and they get an injunction against it hey uh well just because he's just such a weasel in terms of like making open AI into a Clos thing I mean I like Sam personally but I think what he did was like the super weasel move of all time for his own personal benefit If he if he and this whole lying like oh I have no equity I get healthare he does it no bro he does it he does it for the love what what was the statement he does it for the I do it for the Jo benefit out of the benefits I think he got Healthcare I think in opena defense they do need to raise a lot of money and they got to incent their employees but that doesn't mean they need to take over the whole thing that the nonprofit portion can still stay the nonprofit portion and get the Lions share the benefits and be the board and then he can have an incentive package and employees can have an incentive package why don't they get a percentage of the revenue just AB I don't understand has to be bought out right now for 40 billion and then the whole thing disappears into a closed system that part makes no sense to me that's called a shell game and a scam yeah I think Sam and his team would do better to leave the nonprofit part alone leave an actual independent nonprofit board in charge and then have a strong incentive plan and a strong fundraising plan for the investors and the employees so I think this is workable it's just trying to grab it all just seems way off especially when it was built on open algorithms for Google open data from the web and nonprofit funding from Elon and others I mean what a great proposal like we just workshopped here what if they just what do they make six billion a year just take 10% of it 600 million every year and that goes into uh a bonus they're losing money Jason so they have to okay eventually they no but even Equity they could they could give Equity to the people building it but they could still leave it in the control of the nonprofit I just don't understand this conversion I mean there was a there was a board coup right the board tried to fire took now it's hispi selfing right and yeah they'll get an independent valuation but we all know that game you hire valuation expert who's going to say what you're going to say and they'll check box if you're going to capture the life cone of all future value or build super intelligence that's worth a lot more that's why Elon just spit 100 billion exactly you're saying you're saying the things that actually The Regulators and and the legal Community have no Insight because they'll see a fairness opinion and they think oh it says fairness and opinion two words side by side it must be and they don't know how all of this stuff is gamed so yeah yeah I man I got stories about 409a that would exactly 49a are gamed these fairness opinions are gamed but the the reality is I don't think the legal and the judicial Community has any idea I mean imagine if a Founder you invested in just is just a total imaginary situation nval had like a great term sheet at some incredible dollar amount didn't take it ran the valuation down to like under a million gave themselves a bunch of shares and then took it three months later I don't know what would that be called Securities for wrap yeah let's wrap on your story I had an interesting Nick we'll show you the photo I had an interesting dinner on Monday with Brian Johnson the don't die guy came over to my house how's his erection doing overnight what we talked about is he's got three hours a night of nighttime erections wow look at this by the way first of all I'll tell you I think that I I think that he's um wait which one of those is giving him the erection no no no he measures his nighttime erection I think has given him the erection or he but he said he said that when he started so by the way he said he's he was 43 when he started this thing he was basically clinically obese yeah and in these next four years has become a specimen he now has 3 hours a night of nighttime erections but that's not the interesting thing at the end of this dinner by the way his skin is in I I was not sure because when you see the pictures online but his skin in real life is like a porcelain dolls I've both my wife and I were like we've never seen skin like this and it's incredibly soft wait wait wait whoa whoa whoa how do you know skin is soft you know you brush your hand against his forearm or whatever you know gives a hug at the end of the night I'm telling you the guy skin is had Supple skin bro it's the softest skin I've ever touched in my life anyways that's not the point it was really fascinating din he walked through his whole protocol but at the end of it I think it was Nash the CEO ofo alter networks he was just like give me the top three things top three and of the top three things what I'll boil it down to is the top one thing which is like 80% of the 80% it's all about sleep I was about to guess sleep and he walked through his nighttime routine and it's incredible and it's straightforward it's really simple it's like how you do a wind down anyways I have tried to explain the wind down briefly let's just say that because Brian goes to bed much earlier so our normal time let's just say you know 10 10:30 so my time I try to go to bed by 10:30 he's like you need to be in bed you need to first of all stop eating three or four hours before right and I do that I eat at 6:30 so I have about 3 hours you're in bed by 9:30 or 10 you deal with the selft talk right like okay here's the active mind telling you all the things you have to fix in the morning talk it out put it in its place say I'm gonna deal with this in the morning write it down in a journal you're saying whatever you do so that you put it away you cannot be on your phone that's got to be in a different room it's or you just got to be able to shut it down and then read a book so that you're actually just engaged in something and and and he said that he typically falls asleep within three to four minutes of getting into bed and starting this what I tried it so I've been doing it since I had dinner with him on Monday last night I fell asleep within 50 minutes H the hardest part for me is to put the phone away I can't do it of course of course what about youal tell us your one down oh yeah I know so I know I know Brian pretty well actually and I joke that I'm married to the female Brian Johnson because my wife has some of his routines but she's like the natural version no supplements and she's intense and I think when Brian saw my sleep score from my eight sleep he was shot he was he he was just like you're going to die he's like you're literally going to die well you got 70 80 no it's ter it's terrible it's awful but it's tell what's your number what's your number it like in 30s 40s but you know yeah but it's also because I don't sleep much I only sleep a few hours a night and I also move around a lot in the bed and so on but it's fine I I never have trouble falling asleep but I I would say that Brian's yes skincare routine is amazing his diet is incredible he is a genuine character I do think a lot of what he's saying minus the supplements I'm not a big believer in supplements yeah does work I don't know if it's necess going to slow down your aging but you'll look good you'll feel good yeah sleep is the number one thing in terms of falling asleep I don't think it's really about whether you look at your phone or not believe it or not I think it's about what you're doing on your phone if you're doing anything that is cognitively stressful or getting your mind to spin then yes you think you can scroll Tik Tok and fall asleep is fine anything that's entertaining or that is uh like you could read a book right on your Kindle or on your iPad and I think it'd be fine falling asleep or you can listen to like some meditation video or some spiritual teacher or something and that'll actually help you fall asleep but if you're on X or if you're checking your email then heck yeah that's going to keep you up so my hack for sleep is a little different I normally fall sleep within minutes and the way I do it is I you all have a meditation you have a set time no no I sleep whenever I feel like usually around 1 in the morning two in the morning God damn I'm in bed by 10 yeah I need to sleep I'm an owl but if you want to fall asleep the hack I found is everybody has tried some kind of a meditation routine just sit in bed and meditate and your mind will hate meditation so much that if you force it to choose between the fork of meditation and sleeping you will fall asleep every time well okay so after if you don't fall asleep you'll end up meditating which is great too so just I like the meditation do the body scan the coda to this story was a friend a friend of mine came to see me from from the UAE and he was here on Tuesday and I was telling him about the dinner with Brian and he told me the story cuz he's friends with kabib the UFC fighter and he says you know when kib goes to his house he eats anything and everything fried food pizz whatever but he trains consistently and my friend adala says how are you able to do that and how does it not affect your physiology goes I've learned since I was a kid I sleep 3 hours after I train in the morning and I sleep 10 hours at night and I've done it since I was like 12 or 13 years old that's a lot of sleep it's a lot of sleep I you know the direct correlation for me is if I uh do something cognitively like you know big heavy duty conversations or whatever so no heavy conversations at the end of the night no existential conversations the night and then if I go rucking I have the you know on the ranch I put on a 35b weight vest I walk you do that at night before you go to bed no no no if I do it anytime during the day I typically do it in the morning or the afternoon but the 1 to2 mile Ruck with the 35 lbs whatever it is it Just Tires my whole body out so that when I do lay down is that why you don't prepare for the podt you know I mean this pot is the top 10 pot in the world Chim do you think it's an accident freeberg what's your what's your sleep routine can you just go to bed you just like warm bath and I send J Calli a picture of my feet I'll wait till jal's done I do take a nice warm bath it but you do you do it every night a warm bath I do yeah I do a warm bath every night with candles too and do you do it right before you go to bed yeah I usually do it after I put the kids down and I'll basically start to wind down for bed I do watch TV sometimes but I do have the problem and the mistake of looking at my phone probably for too long before I turn the lights off so do you have a consistent time where you go to bed or no usually 11:00 to midnight and then up at 6:30 man I I need I need eight hours otherwise I'm a mess I go to I'm trying to get eight I hit between 600 and seven consistently I try to go to bed that 11: to 1:00 a.m. window and get up the 7 to 8 window my problem is if I have work to do I'll get on the computer or my laptop and then when I start that after in my evening routine I can't stop and then all of a sudden it's like 3 in the morning and I'm like oh no what did I just do and then I still have to get up at 6:30 so that does happen to me so last night was unusual for me but it was kind of funny anyway I thought oh I should go to bed early cuz I'm an Allin yeah but I ended up eating ice cream with the kids late wait what was the brand you said you went for another brand I want to know the brand I think it's van Luen or something like that New York and the holiday cookies and cream oh my God so good yeah it's so good so after I polish that off then I was like oh I probably ate too much to go to bed so I better work out so I did a kettle bell workout you sound like Mo what did you say I have eight kettle bells right here right next to free this is called working out fre and then while I'm doing my kettlebell suitcase carry I was texting with an entrepreneur friend so you can tell how intense my workout was and he's in Singapore so it was in the middle of the night for me and early for him and was time to go to bed I was like I was like okay now I got to get to bed how do I get to bed I'm my body is all amped up I've got food in my stomach Bells my brain is all my brain is all amped up and all in podcast is tomorrow and what time is it's 1:30 in the morning I better get to bed so I I put on like a little one of those spiritual videos to calm me down and then I just and then I got in bed and I was like there's no way I'm falling asleep and I started meditating and 5 minutes later I was asleep you know actually the dolly Lama has these great on his YouTube channel he's got these great like 2hour discussions you get about 20 30 minutes into that you will fall asleep well yeah my but my learning is yeah watch any Dharma lecture from the SS exactly and my my lesson is my learning is that the mind will do anything to avoid meditation yeah yes by the way did you guys see just before we W did you see all the confirmations RFK Jr confirmed Brook rolands confirmed by the way if you look at Poly Market poly Market had it all right a couple weeks ago like I was TR Market there was a moment where fell to like 56% there was a moment when RFK fell to 75% but then they bounced back and it was done could you got snip that man you could have made money yeah and the media the media was like no way he's getting confirmed this is not going to happen but poly Market knows it's so interesting huh well I saw a very insightful tweet and I forget who wrote it so I'm sorry I can't give credit but the guy basically said look Trump has a narrow majority in the house and the Senate yeah and he can get everything he wants as long as a Republicans stay in line so all the pressure and all the anger that all the mega movement is doing against the left is pointless it's all about keeping the rightwing in line so it's all the people saying to the Senators hey I'm going to primary you Nicole Shanahan saying I'm going to primary you it's Scott Pressler saying I'm moving to your District that's the stuff that's moving the needle and causing the confirmations to go through that's how you get cash Patel that's how you get toy gabber the dni that's how you get RF you worry about any of these you think any of them are are too spicy for your taste or you just like the whole burn it down put in the crazy like Outsiders that's such a bad characterization that's not a fair characterization mean the out honestly it's like I never thought I'd see it but I think between Elon and sax and people like that we actually have Builders and doers and financially intelligent people and economically intelligent people in charge and you know despite all the craziness elon's not doing this for the money he's doing it because he thinks it's the right thing to do he moved into the Roosevelt I I think like many of us I had I had bought into the great forces of History mindset where it's just like okay it's inevitable this is what's happening government always gets bigger always gets slower and we just have to try and get stuff built before they just shut everything down and we turn into Europe but the thing that happened then was you know Caesar crossed crossed the Rubicon the great man theory of History played out and we're living in that time and it's it's an inspiration to all of us despite Sam Alman and elon's current fighting I know Sam was inspired by Elon at one point and I think all of us are inspired by Elon I mean the guy can be the Diablo player and do Doge and run SpaceX and Tesla and boring and neural link I mean it's incredibly impressive it makes us that's why I'm doing a hardware company now it makes me want to do something useful with my life you know Elon always makes me question am I doing something useful enough with my life it's why I don't want to be an investor you know Peter te ironically he's an investor but he's inspirational that way too because he like yeah the future just doesn't just happen you have to go make it so you know we get to go make the future and I'm just glad that Elon and Doge and others are making the future thatare what the what do we got going on here maybe I'll all in podcast in a couple of months but it's really it's really difficult I'm not sure I can pull it off so let me try let me just make sure it's viable is it drone related is it self-driving drone drones are cool but no it's not maybe podcast should be an angel investor oh yes absolutely no no Syndicate Jason just our Mone what are you talking about you know how I learned about syndicates was Nal the first syic I ever did on angelist I think is still the biggest I don't know 5% and Nal is my partner on this for.com I think you'll love what I'm working on if I pull it off I think you guys will love it i' love to show your demo let us know where to send the check get that black cherry chip van Leen I love you guys what have we learned I gotta go okay big shout out to Bobby and to Tulsa that's a huge huge huge room for America I'm stoked about both of them congratulations I love me thanks for coming let's get bobbyy Bobby come back on the Pod four thear David Sachs your sulan of science David freeberg the chairman dictator chamath P hatita POA and Namaste N I am the world's greatest moderator we'll see you next time on the all in pond say byebye let your winners ride Rainman David and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love you queen [Music] of Besties are that's my dog taking your [Music] driveways oh man myit will meet me at we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all this usess it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release [Music] somehow we need to get mer [Music] our I'm going all in