How to Save America: Mark Cuban and Tucker Carlson Debate 🔥 | All-In Summit 2025

[Music] Mark Cuban is here. Ever since he was a child, he wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just love to compete. For whatever reason, I do. We want all our fellow Americans to succeed. >> The Dallas Mavericks are NBA champions. The first title in franchise history. >> One of America's most famous professional sports owners is selling his beloved team. You've done a reality show. Just retired from that. cashed out of the Maverick's check. Kind of adds up to you're going to run for president and no, there's no way. >> No. >> Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Mark Cuban. [Music] >> All right. Thanks for being here. God, Mark, it feels like we've been doing this for 30 years. And we have. >> And we have. I know. >> We have. Um, >> what was what GLP are you on? >> Yeah. What What off menu items? >> Looking pretty >> none. >> He's in retirement. Sadine, take a break. Retirement. >> All the You really do look incredible. Like you are you doing something? >> I'm working out. >> Yeah. >> We want to know about the off the menu items. We'll talk backstage. >> There are no off the- menu items. >> No off the menu items. Okay. Um, just exercise. Huh. exercise and watching what I eat. Yeah. >> Um, what was more painful in the last year? Kamla losing or Luca getting traded? >> Luca getting traded. >> It's not even close. And No, I had nothing to do with it. >> We know. And you know, you sold the team. You explained it 50 different ways to Sunday, but there was this idea that you would still be involved to some extent. >> Yeah. I [ __ ] up. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Unpack it. >> Yeah. I mean, when I did the deal, the presumption was that I would still be running basketball. And we tried to put it in the contract, but the NBA said the governor is the governor and they make all final decisions. And then, you know, I was involved and then we went on this run where we went to the finals and rather than trying to interject myself all the time, right, I was like, I don't want to get in the way. We're we're rolling. And that was a mistake, right? So, it went there was some, you know, some things that happened internally where, you know, the person who traded Luca didn't want me there. Um, and so they won. I lost. >> Yeah. >> But that's that's in the past. I'm still hardcore Mavs MFL. >> A rare L for Mark. >> No, there's been plenty of them. I just try to minimize them. >> Yeah. >> U Mark, let's talk about um healthcare. >> Uhhuh. You started a business that has had a really profoundly disruptive impact and it's compounding. Tell the people the business you started and tell them why you started it and why you just think healthcare is broken. >> Sure. So I got a cold email from a Dr. Alex Ashmayansky and he wanted to create what's called a compounding pharmacy where um pharmacies can make drugs um per order and it was right around the time the farmer bro was going to jail for jacking up the price of this generic drug called Derapim. And I was like how can he do this? Alex, and you know, in investigating it, it became very clear very quickly that no one knew what the price of any medication was and there was zero transparency. And so I was like, this is wrong. So we got the URL costdrugs.com and we set it up so that when you go to costplusdrugs.com, costplusdrugs.com, and you put in the name of the medication, whatever it may be, we're going to show you our actual cost. And not only we going to show you our actual cost, we're going to show you our markup, which is only 15%. Plus for mail order is $5 for shipping, $5 for the pharmacist to review. And then we also have the option of local pickup. Now, what really created the change is we were the first to ever do that. And even to this day, three and a half years later, nobody else publishes their price list for medications. And so when you think about health care, particularly the financial side, nobody trusts it at all. And in reality, you know, trust is actually a formula in my mind. Trust equals transparency divided by self-interest. We were completely transparent and in terms of self-interest, only a 15% markup on medications is fair and it's nothing. And so, you know, I get emails all the time like, you know, I was looking at having to pay 900 or a,000 or 1,500 or 2,000 and your price is $21. But can you but just explain that it's not as if it's 21 versus 40 or 90. It's 21 versus 900. How does that happen? >> Because it can. You know, if if you have an entire industry of insurance companies and the pharmacy benefit managers that either own them or they own controlling the flow, the financial flow in an entire healthcare industry and it's completely opaque by design. They get to charge what they want because again unless you know to go to cost plusdrugs.com you have no idea what your medic did I say that right? cost plusdrugs.com and I never I'm not a sales person.com segment brought to you by >> Yeah, right. cost plusdrugs.com. Um but unless you know to go check pricing with us, you're just walking in and just hoping you can afford it. And the way the system is set up now, you know, even at Medicare Advantage or Medicare Part D will be cheaper than your co-pay and particularly if it's co- insurance. They one of the things that the pharmacy benefit managers did that's just a complete ripoff. They created tiers of medications. And so there's generic tiers, there's brand tiers. Um but even in Medicare and medic and Medicare advantage, they created these things called specialty generics. They're just pills. There's like a drug called a matnib. All these multiple sclerosis drugs. There's a long list of them. But because they designated them as special, they either use a co- insurance or a very high co-pay. We don't do any of that. So a big part of our business are is people on Medicare Advantage on Medicare Part D with >> drugs you can't get access to or you can't compound or you can't make if >> Yeah. There's certain drugs like the biggest brand drugs, the Eloquists of the world. We can't get access to them. And the reason why we can't get access to them is because those big PBMs, they have these things called formularies which determine the drugs that you're allowed to have access to for 180 million plus people. And they've literally told the brand manufacturers, if you deal with cost plusdrugs.com, we will diminish you on that formulary. So instead of reaching 180 million people and not just for the drugs they work with us on, but for their entire portfolio. Sounds like an antitrust case. >> Yes, it is. >> But but Mark, like if this gets changed, the PBMs gets wiped out. First of all, should the PBMs all get deleted? And if they do get deleted, >> what's going to happen in the marketplace? Is there suddenly going to be a big commoditization, more competitors for your business, etc. >> I don't care about the competition cuz our markup's still going to be 15%. And we're so AIdriven. We only have 70 people in the entire company and we manufacture drugs and the whole nine yards. if they're all wiped out or the easier um approach is require that the formularies are segregated from the PBMs because all they really do is auction off access to those formularies. >> Yeah. >> And when they do that >> so do you think the PBM should be deleted? >> Well, there's pass through PBMs. I mean the the [ __ ] that PBMs do are just insane. Like if you wanted to go if your company, if you get your insurance from your employer and they wanted to go to Lily or Novo Norse to do a wellness program to determine who's most suited for GLP1s, they're not allowed to do that. And on top of that, all >> the reason is >> because contractually they don't want you >> get blocked out. They want you to go direct. >> They don't want you to go direct. M >> and on top of that like you would think it'd be valuable for the claims for all the people who use you know Zepbound or whatever the GOP wants to go to the manufacturers so they can determine adherence what's working you know issues not allowed in fact they'll charge them to get access to that. Are there things that the the government agencies or next round of legislation can do to take the advantages of what you've learned and apply it so that everybody can get the benefit of this? >> Well, have you talked to the administration about that? >> Um, I mean, I've talked to some people, but then they say, "We're not going to tell anybody. We talked to you." Um, but you know, the simplest approach really is just market driven. So, where you guys get your insurance for yourselves, for the besties, for the companies that you guys work with out there, tell them don't use one of the biggest, don't use any of the big PBMs. Use these things called pass through PBMs that allow you to own your own claims, own your own data, get the lowest price, etc. So, there's a there are market solutions to get there, >> right? >> Is the original sin in this country tying healthcare to employers and making them responsible for it? Is that what we have to solve for? >> No. Um the original sin is allowing the these companies to become vertically integrated and enormous. And so like there's one big insurance company just for intercomp transfers each year. It's about $161 billion. That's.3% of our GDP. They have gotten so large and so vertically integrated that they can game the entire system. You want your medical loss ratio to be where it needs to be. will then push the cost to, you know, to the PBM. You want to increase your profits here, you know, you want to make your Medicare Advantage programs work, game the system this way. The big insurance companies, think about this, right? We all have insurance or we're on our parents insurance at some point, but um the insurance company defines a plan, right? And they set a premium and they set a deductible and a max out of pocket. The less you make, the more likely you're going to take a lower premium, higher deductible. But excluding the people on Medicaid, 40% of people can't afford a $400 bill, right? Or expense. Yet, they're the ones choosing the $2500, the $5,000 deductibles and the 9,000 out of pockets. Which means for the insurance companies that they know that they can't afford to get the first le level of care anywhere. they can't afford to go to the hospital. So, the insurance company is just keeping the premiums. And even if you work for a company, let's say you work for a company here in LA and your net take-home, you know, is $35 $40,000 and you have a 2500 or $3,000 deductible and you're playing basketball and you go to dunk like Jason always does and breaks his leg. >> Yeah. >> You're [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> You know, you're not going. That's why my fingers are like this, right? because you know you just can't afford to go to use your deductible. That's the problem of the system. And as long as we have these these companies that are so vertically integrated continue to buy more and more companies so that they can game the system even more and they control the patient flow and they control the the flow of drugs. So this is an interesting um reaction happening in the markets which is self-directed healthcare. people are opting to affluent people in some cases higher premiums and saying you know what I'll just >> do my own blood work with superpower or function I'm going to go um >> you know take care of my own uh peptides or I'm going to go to a compounding pharmacy I'm going to go to row.com and I'm going to get you know my whatever >> you're spending too if you go to rose.com let me just tell you for my friends of my age right 90 toil cost less than a cost less than a bag of M&M's toadill is generic seialis So, we charge less than a bag of M&M. So, if you go to Rose or HS or those guys, you're getting ripped off. >> Mark, let me ask you. Uh, >> but the self-directed >> But the self-directed >> Jason's going to change his prescription. >> I'll change my prescription. Right. >> Um, um, you on the self-directed, >> right? So, on that point, right? So, we're creating a company called Cost Plus Wellness that hasn't launched yet. It'll hopefully launch at the end of this month. And what we're doing is we're going out there for my companies. We're we're eating our own dog food and we're setting up direct contracts with 8,000 providers at this point. And so it's based off of cash pay because those insurance companies not only rip off patients and you know and deny care, etc., etc., they also underpay providers and all these other things and they have to respond >> and they underpay doctors, too. Um, and so what we're doing is we're going out there negotiating these cash prices with with terms that pay we'll pay on a cash basis. But what's different about it when we launch, we're going to publish all those contracts because there's absolutely no transparency whatsoever on the insurance side. Companies don't know what they're doing. They're permitted from having discussions with each other to compare notes. So, we'll publish the contract. Just to to wrap that point on cost plus uhdrugs.com, you're not going to this isn't going to impact your economics personally in any way. You're doing this because hey, maybe as a third act, you see this as a way to give back to >> I want to [ __ ] up healthare. Who here thinks the financial side of healthcare is great? >> Nobody. It's a [ __ ] mess. Right. And so >> you're doing this to prove a point to help people >> because it's fixable. >> Yes. >> Right. It's fixable. But politicians got to do what politicians do, right? Even with the president. >> Have you gone to DC since President Trump? I know you were campaigning for Kla Harris. >> Have you been to DC since the election? >> Yeah, one time >> you have. And and how did it go? And our experience look maybe maybe we're a little bit influential or whatever because of various relationships, but like everyone we speak to like it's an open door policy. the the administration is listening to everyone on all of these important issues and we're hearing this from industry leaders from both sides of >> trying to get them to move right is different right because the president and actually his MFN EO was great right no knock on that whatsoever the problem is like we literally went to manufacturers and we said take the PBMs out and if you take the PBMs out and sell to us at a higher price than what you're selling to the big PBMs and just let us mark it up only our 15% % our price will be close to all the European countries that the MFN wants to compare to because you know the difference between the our countries and theirs they don't have PBMs right so we we went I went to CMS and told them we would do these things right then we started talking to the manufacturers then the manufacturers backed off and CMS knew they backed off you know why they backed off they were more afraid of the PBMs of being removed from formularies than they were of Donald Trump >> I even wrote a letter for them to give to the president explaining all that. Now, whether or not they ever gave it to him, I don't know. But it it's crazy that they would rather piss off Donald Trump and make the EO not happen because it's been a lot longer than 90 days and we haven't seen a single drug that falls under the MFN. >> Mark, if you look, you you've had a lot of chapters in your life, very successful. Um, but if you are able to crack this, it will obviously not just be a great service for people, but you will build an immense amount of social and political capital. And you know, we mentioned this backstage, but some folks have whispered and said, you know, when we ask who is the leader of the Democratic Party, you know, and they say they say it's Mark Cuban. >> Eric Swwell said this on our show. >> That was a long time ago. But Mark, can you just can you just transition and just talk about that, which is um where is the Democratic Party? Um >> if you're able to get this done, how can you sort of reinvigorate that side of the >> I don't care about the Democratic Party. People think I'm a Democrat. I'm not. >> I think you're a Democrat. >> I'm not. If it were up to me, I'd kick both parties to the curb. I think both parties suck, right? >> I'm with moderates and independents. Common sense. So, does that mean you're pro-America party? If you were advising Elon, would you tell him stay out of the Republican party, just try to win some seats for common sense, and would you back him with the American? >> Depends on, you know, the policies and who the politicians were. But yeah, I said I tweeted or posted, yes, I'm wide open to that. We need to look at each indiv individual situation for its own merits. Yeah. >> Right. I just don't care about either party. You know, both like the Republican party isn't the Republican party anymore. It's the Trump family business and the Democratic party doesn't even exist anymore because, you know, they don't even know what they're doing and there's nobody in charge, right? They both suck. >> Do you do you get calls from uh Democratic leadership saying what should we do? Give us >> Yeah. >> And what do you say? >> Start I Well, basically what I tell them is you have to learn how to sell. They have no idea how to sell. I'll give you a perfect example. Right. right now with um the enhanced um ACA credits, subsidy credits are set to expire at the end of this year, right? That when they expire for 12 and a half million people, >> these are the Obamacare healthcare credits, >> right? Right. For the ACA, right? And so when they expire, let's just take a family of five from the from the state of Texas, the great state of Texas, $125,000 in income, three kids. By the time you look at all their adjustable gross income and all that kind of stuff, their net federal tax rate is 3.3%. Their effective tax rate 3.3%. That same family, right, if they lose their um the enhanced credits cuz they're eligible for them, they their monthly payments will go from $880 give or take per month to about $2,300 a month. So that delta $1,500 a month that's $18,000 a year that that's you know 20% that's a 20% tax increase. Now that's right in front of the Democrats to jump all over when it comes to you know all the stuff that's coming up right yet not a single word that this is the biggest increase in the history of tax increases ever. And so they're not cognizant of just the obvious things. And then the Republicans aren't cognizant of it either because they've got to realize that you are about to screw over 12 and a half million people in a way they've never been screwed over before. You know, it's just right there right in front of them and and nobody's paying attention to like and we wonder, you know, >> what do they say when when you point this out to Democratic leadership that calls you? What's the response? >> That's a good point. >> Yeah. [Laughter] And it seems like they're leaning into this ban the billionaires social. >> Yeah. And that's so stupid. I had that conversation the other day. 942 or however many people. Look, it's like the Mandami thing, right? They haven't learned from 10 years of Trump. Mandami is just Trump progressive progressive version, right? You just say what people want to hear. You want rent control? Yeah, I'll give you rent control, right? You want free transportation? Got it. Right? You want grocery stores paid for by the government? Done. That's Trump 101. You know, and so they he has figured it out. >> Yeah. >> The rest of them have not. >> Yeah. >> I think this might be a good time to bring out our stay here, Mark. But I think we want to bring out >> I want we want to introduce you to a friend of ours. People who are Let's just add one more bestie. Let's add a best surprise. Come on out. Surprise bestie coming up. Tucker. Carl. [Music] and is in. >> I'll give you a hug. >> Thank you, >> gentlemen. >> All right. >> I think you guys are on the couch next to each other. But actually, this what what Mark >> the right and the left. Mark raised an interesting question there which is curious to get your your take Tucker which is uh where's the line of democracy Tucker between >> giving the people what they want which is democracy versus what Mark seems to be saying which is pandering to them or something or offering something that >> where is the line I mean I can identify it it's at cost plusdrugs.com >> and it's happening >> I was I was thinking backstage like >> this is one smart Where do I meet my SSRI needs? Like let's say I need I don't know a pallet of benzo cost plusdrugs.com. Um >> I would say I I would say that that falls on the kind of radical democracy end of the spectrum which I oppose. Uh no I mean it's a balance. Obviously, the founding documents reflect the balance that the founders for all their sort of overhyped genius. They really were geniuses actually and they thought deeply about this. And how do you not devolve into this the ugliest form of democracy which inevitably leads to tyranny where you're just like taking payoffs and seeking affirmation from the mob and the oligarchy that is that the other extreme. And clearly we're on sort of like or were up until Trump's election sort of at one end where there was no demonstrable effort by the government to meet like the basic desires of the population doing just the opposite. There was never like any effort to pull people like hey would you like 40 million new Americans? Like no one's for that in any country ever. And they just sort of gave it to you and shouted you down whether you wanted it or not. Hey, maybe we should, you know, the real problem is the Houthies. Okay. Oh, the Houthies. All right. As my father said to me growing up, just beware of the Houthies. Ancient ancient enemy of our people. Like what? And they would just sort of present these things or Putin is bad. You got to hate Putin. Really? I don't really have strong feelings. Shut up, Russian tool or whatever. This is even before I loved Putin. I was like, what are you even talking about? Um so in place of sort of the the actual organic desires of the people which are never that different from society to society peace, prosperity, hope of a better future for your children, the promise of grandchildren, not just sterility. Um in place of those they manufacture these things you're supposed to want. So that's obviously like way on the other side of what we think of as just basic responsive government. Are we going too far otherwise? I don't know. We're not even a year in. But that is the tension. >> Tucker, I want to get your reaction to what Mark said. Um Mark characterized Mandani as uh Trump on the left like he's taken the Trump playbook and inverted it and applied it in a more, you know, with leftist rhetoric. Do you agree with that characterization? What what is working in Mumani? And what is the same and different versus >> Well, I mean, I'm not an expert on Mani. I don't know him. I've tried to interview him a bunch of times because I think it'd be interesting. Um, there's clearly something there, right? It's and it's not just about hating Israel or the foreign policy stuff. I don't I refuse to believe that's the core of it. I think it's part of it, but I think the core of it is just economic frustration. And I think this is a marker for what we're going to see a whole lot more of, which is economic populism. That's the actual next chapter that's going to scare the [ __ ] out of everyone in this room. And I get it. I'm not even calling for it. I'm just saying when your kids can't buy a house or even dream of buying a house when they're buying Door Dash on credit, you're ripe for some kind of revolution. And the question is, is it a violent one, God forbid, or is it a kind of sincere Bernie Sanders? But either way, you're going to get some kind of massive reaction to that because that is a core human need. >> What's the impact of social media in all this? Cuz I think one thing that another thing that Madami and Trump have in common is they know how to make the algorithms work in their favor. >> Yeah. >> You know, when Trump talks about they're eating cats and dogs, >> which I don't think they were, by the way. >> Well, maybe one person was, right? But it was certainly >> okay. Maybe one person. >> So that's not a thing. >> Eating one dog is too many. If >> being American means anything, if you could boil down a national creed to one statement is no dog eating here. What about cats? >> I'm agnostic on cats, but like no dog. >> Yeah, cats are pricks. >> That's like a foundational principle. >> Well, no, but if if if it is about wages, if it is about affording a home, let's put the uh political parties aside, what's the path forward, Mark Tucker, of maybe letting the bottom third believe in America again? Should we raise the minimum wage? Do we need to have a Manhattan project to do something as easy as build five million homes? I mean, we live in the great state of Texas. They build homes like you wouldn't believe. And rents have gone down in Texas three years in a row. I mean, there are solutions to these problems. What should we solve for as a country? Politics aside, if we had a top two or three things, what do we need to solve? Mark and then Tucker, same for you. >> I think we've forgotten about entrepreneurs. >> Yeah. You know, I think that's one of the challenges of the tariffs that we hear about $500 billion investment, $600 billion investment, $2 trillion, whatever in aggregate investment, but we don't talk about the 10% effective or 15 or 20% effective tariffs and the impact on small businesses. And not just from the actual tariffs per se, but from the friction that they create for the companies trying to run their companies, right? Um, like for my Shark Tank companies, it's put several out of business. And when you hear the president talk about them, I understand he's trying to work on a macro basis. That's that's what he's trying to do. That's fine. But for, you know, there's 33 million companies, 30 million of them are solarreneurs. You know, there's only 22,000 companies that have 500 or more employees. 60% of new jobs are created by small companies. I think they're being ignored. And to your point, if he's able to reduce friction in terms of zoning, in terms of um anything else that makes it more difficult to run, whether it's using AI or whatever it may be, um then I start I think the American spirit takes over, right? You guys are entrepreneurs, you're an entrepreneur. You know that you know the ideas are there. The people who want to implement those ideas are what makes this. You can go around the world and they don't talk about the French dream, the, you know, the Houthy dream. They talk about the American, >> by the way, over lunch, the French government collapsed. I understand. Um, but they talk about the American dream. That's what makes this country great. That's what makes this country different. And I think for a long time now, we've forgotten about those entrepreneurs. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. >> Well, Tucker, what do you got on the short list? >> I mean, I I think housing is like the core of kind of everything. you know, where you live is like one of the central questions of your life. I don't think it's actually about housing. It's about autonomy. >> Actually, both sides want to subvert it. The left is always talking about housing. The unhoused as if the core problem with homelessness is we don't have enough like, you know, section 8 highdensity buildings or something. It's nothing to do with that. And the right talks about it like even to address the question is to sort of buy into the Mammi program. You're a socialist or something. Yeah. And no, I think the material condition of your people is like a really big deal and you should focus on it. It doesn't make you a socialist at all. I am not a socialist obviously. And then they go too far. Like I don't think, you know, building condos in Yellowstone either is the answer. We have way too many people in the country. So like the big like the topline numbers really matter. How many people live here? Well, we don't actually know the answer, >> right? >> Trump told me directly he thought it was 50 million. He's the president of the United States. doesn't know how many people whose identities we don't really know live here, which is a little weird in a time of facial recognition. Like, I have to have my nose scanned to get on an airplane, but like we don't know who's here. I call [ __ ] but whatever. We don't know. But we do know that. And you know, from traveling that how many people a country has determines the nature of the country almost more than anything, right? I mean, this kind of why like the places you go on vacation are not densely populated. So we need to articulate just like the obvious supply and demand principles out loud. >> Don't we have more fundamental issues than that though? >> There's no more fundamental issue than who lives in your country. Dude, >> there is. Right. Because >> Okay. >> Because if you want if you want >> the cost of prescription drugs. >> No, but if you want the birth rates to go up, >> I may have an answer to that, Mark. >> Thank you. What was the name of the place? >> Costplus.com. Smart man. >> For your drug needs. I'm Cal Worththington. >> Yeah. Sorry. But if you can't afford to live here, you can't afford kids, right? If if you can't afford healthare. >> Mark, let me ask you a question. >> What's your take on whether we should be sending money to Ukraine or not? Were you in favor of that? >> Man, they need it. >> I mean, honestly, I don't have a good answer. You know, I can make an argument both ways. And half my family is Ukrainian on my from my grandparents. And so, you know, personally, I think we should help. Um, but I don't have a studied answer for you. >> Have you How much money have you sent to Ukraine? >> None. >> Oh, so what do you mean by we? >> You're the one whose family's from Ukraine. Like, why don't you send them a billion dollars? >> Because I'm trying to fix healthcare. >> Why don't you fix their healthcare if you're like so deep? If you think we need to help, why don't you start? How about you first? >> I noticed that's never like even an option for anybody. It's like we need to help. That's not what charity is. Forcing other people to help is not charity. The good news is all the weapons were on loan lease. We're getting it back. And >> our dear President Trump has negotiated that we own half the minerals. So he turned this horrible tragedy of a war into a profit center, which is one of his unique gifts. I think we can all agree. C can I can I just follow up on the like the another alternative root cause, and I've harped on this a lot, federal spending. uh ultimately if the federal deficit remains as it is 6 and a half% of GDP we're printing money the Federal Reserve has to buy all the treasuries to fund the b the the government that money printing and all of those inefficient programs for lending for housing lending for student loans spending on stuff that has no ROI etc etc ultimately leads to inflation and leads to everything becoming unaffordable. Is it not an option? How much do you both care about or think about reigning in the federal spending and having those kind of pointed conversations about the importance of this? And >> go ahead, Tucker. You look like >> I mean I think about it a lot. I think about the devaluation of the dollar. I think about it's just not worth as much. And I know that in my own I'm not an investor. I don't invest in anything, but in the things that I buy with an eye to retaining value, they're physical things. I just don't believe in any of this at all. And um so I I caught myself the other day and I I'm at such a low sort of level compared to everyone else here. I'm not especially rich, but like I had a little bit of extra money and I'm like it really was like the VHimar impulse like [ __ ] I got to buy something soon before I lose >> before the dollar's worth less. >> Yeah. I mean, everyone everyone I know and I live in a very rural area and I most of my friends are crazy, but >> people I know are thinking in terms of like land, gold, ammo. Like I don't think that water I don't think that's No, I mean are you really laughing >> or are you tittering nervously? >> Um cuz you know that's not insane. That's >> right. >> So I own a [ __ ] ton of Bitcoin first and foremost, right? It kind of a kind of a hedge um and have probably 5 years now. Um but we do need to cut costs and I'm hoping AI is a a path there. you know, government as a service, AI as a service, reducing the number of people it takes to get things done. Understanding that laws that were written in the six, and this is kind of the abundance thing, right? Laws that were written in the 60s that are still in place don't apply now. It's kind of like the government version of the innovator's dilemma. We have to modify things that are in place already so we can start to optimize. And I think we haven't done that in a long, long time. And I don't think it's we're in the process of changing that right now. But may I ask and I'm not against anything you said. I mean I'm for techntocratic solutions to moral problems too. But >> I wonder Just kidding. I'm wondering what the aim is. It seems like with any project like you begin by articulating your goal, >> right? >> Which is like one thing America is super bad at. It's like if you want to get to the moon, say so. And then if you don't get there, just fake it or whatever like we did. But but it begins with again kidding. But it begins with saying what the goal is. Like what kind of society do you want? No, but you never I'm not attacking you at all. >> I do think you should money to Ukraine. But I I think it's we're all at fault. It's all like, well, how can we do this more efficiently? Well, do what? Like in the end, I want to live in a society where people live in single family homes with little lawns that they own that are not going to be taken away from them. Like actual property rights, not theoretical properties like my house. Okay. I want married people and I want them to have children and grandchildren with the rough assurance, the future of course being fundamentally unknown, but rough assurance that like it'll kind of be the same. Radical change all the time drives people insane. >> Radical change to do. >> It's not radical change, dude. I grew in this city. I don't recognize it. I'm only 56. That's radical change. >> What you talking about Los Angeles? >> Yeah. Like what is this? >> Look, you can go in any any decade, any generation. Rick Cruz says, "No, there's never been there has never been population." Okay, then I dare you then, cuz I know you're historian. Give me another example other than the mass rape by the Mongols of population change like what we've seen in the West over the past 50 years. You can't cuz there isn't one in all recorded history. So, you can be for it or against it, but you can't say >> answering their own questions. >> I That way I get to the right answer. I just answer my own questions. Yeah, >> this is a monologue posing as a colloqu. >> Let me uh let let me uh bring us to AI job displacement. It's been a big debate we've been having on the pod. We all know >> that AI is going to replace a large number of jobs. >> Do we know that? I don't >> think any self-driving car replaces four or five drivers full-time positions. That's indust. >> But there could be different jobs. >> Well, okay, we're going to get to that. But for our guests, do you think we're going to have a job displacement that could be acute? And how should we handle that? Because we're seeing people make Optimus robots. The idea that any human is going to be in a factory sorting things. And all the factories we're making today are designed explicitly to not have humans in it. We may be talking about bringing back and shuring factory jobs. That's not happening. All the new factories are going to be run by robots. We all know that. They're lights out facilities. So what's the best worst case scenario here in terms of management? >> Can I give you the upside >> please? >> And that and everyone knows this but like you know the IBEW is fine like your electrician will still exist. We've got 1 million lawyers and a little fewer than 1 million lawyers in the United States and a lot of them are just so and I think it's just so great to think of unemployed. No, I'm serious. So it's going to I do think to some extent it's going to affect the worst most entitled most annoying classes of people. Okay. So that's an upside. I don't want to see any other working class people. So can I see this one thing? >> You can you can displace farm workers. What are they going to do about it? You can displace factory workers. They'll just kill themselves with drugs and fast food, which they have done. And you'll feel sort of guilty, but then ignore it. If you do that to lawyers and nonprofit sector employees who I lived around in DC, you will get a revolution. And I mean that. I'm dead ser. Where did Paul come from? where I mean there's never been a revolution that wasn't fermented by frustrated members of the sort of insurgent class. It's totally true. Subarristocrat, but the striving class, the most repulsive people there are, I think we fair to say, but also the most intent on getting what they want. And if you put them out of business, I mean, I'm not joking at all. I think >> we're seeing this. We're seeing this already. One could argue that the Mandani election surge may be the result of young people coming out of colleges that were in that exact same situation. >> Driving elite and they don't have >> and and they were told that if they take on $400,000 of debt, they'll end up making a good living and progressing in life, buying a home. And all of that turned out to not be [ __ ] true. So, I got two kids in college and what I tell them is if you were looking for a job at a big company, you're not going to get it, right? >> Because the big companies can implement their what they need to do with AI in the short term. The small to middlesize companies need all the help they can get from AI um natives, right? Because walking in and understanding AI and being able to implement for that company is a huge step forward to them. So I think that's one way to where where we will adjust. Number two, right, the tools you have as someone in college, there's no better time to be in college or just graduating than right now because you have more resources available to you in your phone than anybody in the history of everything, right? Because if you want to be an entrepreneur, if you want to do whatever it is, you have every expert that's right there available to you. And it's not going to go as far as you think in the short term. But in the long term, it comes down to robotics because the electrical workers, if robotics do what robotics need to do, they're [ __ ] right? Because here's the disconnect right now that I think people don't understand in AI. On one hand, we we're so used to the large language models, right? But those are all text driven. They don't know anything that's happening here. They can't acquire all this video. They can't adapt. There's a huge lat latency and it's all text. And all their IP is being siloed, right? they're going to have to pay for it. So, they'll all have their own specialties. A lawyer, large, there'll be millions of large language models. Robotics, on the other hand, it's not even so much about self-driving cars or what I use in the factories of cost plus drugs. It's about in your house. It's about walking down the streets. It's about doing those things. So, if you tell you have to get to a point, we have to get to a point for it to be impactful where you can say to a robot, "Clean the house." >> And they'll know not to touch Jason's socks. Right? And they'll know, right? The whole idea is robots use video and they capture and they have to be able to process that video which means understanding the laws of physics which >> yeah would you let a robot with a video camera in your house honestly. >> Yes. Right. And beyond that, right? >> Very self-confident man, aren't you? >> Right. Houses are going to be redesigned cuz right now when we design houses and we design robots, we design them to work for us >> and the optimal robots aren't going to look anything like us at all. Mark, >> we're running. Hold on. We're running out of time. >> Lightning round. >> Was Epstein a spy? >> No. No. >> Is Putin >> We're going to stay with Tucker now. >> We're going to stay with Tucker for a little bit. >> We're going to stay with Tucker. Okay. >> You gave it away, man. Now, let's thank Mark Cuban. Everybody Tucker's going to stay. >> Tucker's going to stay a little bit. Sorry. Great job, brother. Move on. >> Okay, Tucker. Now, you get your own segment here. All right. So, I need to I need to get these answers. Okay. cost plusdrugs.com. >> Yes. Was Epstein a spy? Is Putin a war criminal? And what was Saxs like in college? Go. >> Was Epste a spy? No. I mean, I don't think I mean, I don't know. I I do know a lot about the story. I don't think he was a conventional. He wasn't like an asset or something. He did a ton of work on behalf of intel agencies. American >> work on behalf of intel. >> Yes. Well, no question. He was involved in Ron Contra. >> American, French, Israeli, pro probably British. I mean I you know but >> but there are a lot of I know I know a million people and so do you >> in that category >> which is most people who travel a lot >> okay now >> know a lot of people are doing >> war criminal >> let me define war criminal a war criminal is anybody who kills the innocent and that's what terrorism is that's what a war crime is the basis of western justice is that we punish the guilty okay >> we punish people as individuals not as groups because we don't believe in, you know, in blood guilt. We don't believe in collective punishment. And so by that standard, you know, there are very few are innocent. I'm not being a relativist here. I'm just, but I think it's really important to define the term. And just to say it again, a war crime and terrorism have this have the same root crime, which is punishing the innocent. Period. And if there's one thing that Western civilization exists to uphold, it's his sense of fairness and justice. And it's rooted in that. We punish the guilty. We do not punish the guilty's relatives. We don't punish people who look like the guilty, from the same place as the guilty. We punish the individual because we believe that all people are fundamentally equal, not in their aptitude, but in their value because they're all created by God. That is the West. The West. The West. We're fighting to uphold the Western val. No. What is it then? That's what it is. And so to the extent you fall short of that, yes, you were a criminal. Period. >> Now, most importantly, what was Saxs like in college? take us back. >> Totally [ __ ] out of control. You know, I never >> It's funny. People are always like, "If you mix cocaine and iawasa, >> it's really hard to stand on the roof of a moving car." And I'm like, "Yeah, that makes sense." >> Until you see someone do it. >> Absolutely. But more importantly, if you bang one of these, you don't want to hear more. >> Where are we at? Are you No, we're going to get there. But are I want to be on the same level as you. Are you banging nines or threes right now? I don't want to say on the grounds it'll make me seem impossibly cool, but nine is obvious. >> Here you go. You get a chilled. What do you got? What are you packing? I know you got >> I pack and I I'm not allowed to make any medical claims though. These do cure illness. >> No, these make a god. >> I can just tell you these make you a god, but what do you got? Come on, toss. You got to share. >> It's my version of costbd drugs.com. >> Oh, wow. >> Nectaroo 9. Yes, I have one in 12. Let's go. I've used nicotine for 41 years. >> Come on, Saxs. Get on the level. >> Is going to become so difficult this afternoon. >> Oh, man. >> No. Uh, >> it's crazy what they do. You know, the health benefits are insane. I never go to the doctor. I eat a lot of pizza. >> I never intentionally exercise. I'm 56 >> and I feel great. And I mean that. And I mean, you look great in Okay, I need to get this back on the rails. I need to get this back on the rails. Okay, back on the rails. Tucker, uh, I I would like to go around the world in the 11 minutes that we have and just get your reaction to a bunch of different things. Okay, let's start in Europe, uh, UK and then just continental Europe. What has happened? >> I feel like all of those nations, the Anglophere specifically, but Western Europe in general is poised for massive change, and I just hope it ends peacefully. But the story in the West is population change. Period. That's the story. And following from that comes cultural and political change. And it's always painful. I don't think it's always bad personally, but at the scale it's happening, it's happened way too fast. And there will either be, you know, like a true reaction of the kind that none of us want to see or there will be full totalitarian clampdown. What was at the root of for example there was a post on X that said that Canada's population increased by 30% in like the last 7 years. >> Yeah. >> 35 35% >> 35% >> in the UK when you know you look >> simultaneous with government sponsored suicide where native Canadians are encouraged to kill themselves at government expense for non-terminal illnesses up to and including economic distress. And that's sponsored by the government. It's called the Maids program. It's the darkest thing that's happened since Europe in the 30s. We're instructed to ignore it. The government advertises it in conjunction with private businesses in Canada. And it's like, it's one of those things where your grandkids, assuming you have them, are going to ask you like, "What was that? And why didn't anybody say anything about it?" I gave a speech in Canada recently and mentioned it. I started with it cuz it's like so mesmerizingly horrifying >> and people just like stared at me like, "I don't think we're supposed to talk about that." It's like the the brainwashing is so generational and crazy that they can't even notice when people are dying at the behest of the government. The behest, by the way, >> and to be clear what we're talking about, assisted suicide, end of life suicide, you can go in, you can set a date, >> not for the terminally ill, for like the bummed out or veterans who don't have adequate housing, we'll kill you for free. And they are pushing that program. And thousands of people have died. And the they of course they don't release most of the numbers, but they did release numbers this summer that showed it's like 100% native Canadian. >> Yeah. >> Because people who show up there from Gujarat were like why would I kill myself? This is awesome. Like they have the spirit of life in them. >> And what is that? It's not just the government. I mean there's something going on with Western populations that is suicidal and they're participating in it. >> You think that's related to fertility and birth rates? >> It's a fertility and birth rates their decline reflect the change that I'm describing which is very obvious. I spent a lot of time in Europe for a bunch of reasons and I have family there and it's like I I was just there and it's like I can't even not believe this is happening. Why doesn't anybody say anything? >> There was a survey that was just published today. I I got to pull it up but it uh surveyed um 12 things rank them in order of importance. Men that voted for Trump number one was having children. Women that voted for Kamla number 12 out of 12. >> And do you remember the percentage? This is women who voted for comm American women asked your priorities. What percentage said having children was an interest of theirs? >> What was it? >> 6%. >> Why? >> So that's suicide. That's that's you're watching the end of something. That's people voluntary. >> Is it a deep pessimism about society? Is it a deep depression that I can't progress in life? Where is it? >> I think I mean yes yes yes of of course that's what it is. But I mean that's without precedent really. Even in the final years of the Soviet Union there was no indication that it was that bad. And but it is reflective of what a defeated empire does >> like a defeated peoples. But I personally think there's something bigger going. Why is it happening in New Zealand? Why is it happening in Ireland? These are not colonial power. Ireland was never a colonial power. They were colonized. >> South Korea. >> Korea which if you spend time in >> by the way a Korean friend of mine said to me in 50 years there will be only North Korea. >> Are these all just post-industrial? Is that what they are? Versus rising industrial. It's not happening in Africa. It's not happening in parts of South Asia. The opposite. >> You feel the life force when you go >> fertility rates or or birth rates in Africa I think are like six to seven >> but the global south more broadly that is true and what middle east but yeah I mean there are lots of causes but there's a spiritual route. I mean the secular places are killing themselves. >> Yeah >> and the religious place it's not happening with orthodox Jews in bro park. >> Does the industrialization kill religion? >> The atom bomb killed religion. Hiroshima killed killed killed the west because of course you're God now and every every assumption we've made since August of 1945 80 years ago has been based on the core often unstated belief that we're in full control of nature >> it's also why we became so deeply technopessimistic I think >> well I think there's some evidence to support that pessimism I this is something that the Japanese people can kind of teach us from because the last two times I was there two different people said they weren't having kids I asked why and they said it's immoral to bring children into a world of global climate change and that it would just be totally immoral because the temperatures are rising and and I was just like are these people been hallucinating like >> well they don't even required to have children in the first place >> right >> so like any society where people have to be encouraged to have sex >> is a society that has decided to extinguish itself because that's like the most that's like that honestly that's like being Bobby sands and starving yourself to death. That's like you're at war with nature. You've decided my most basic impulses must be overridden, >> right? >> In the service of what? Death. >> And so I I've never been a super religious person. I'm certainly becoming one. That's for sure. At high speed, just in reaction to watching what's happening. And I think it's the darkest thing that's happened in a thousand years at least. >> We were talking about SSRIs earlier. What's your take on this medication of everybody with these anti-depressants >> legal immediately SSRIs? I mean, don't get me going, but let me just say, and I say this, I should say as a sober person who doesn't use deodorant and doesn't believe in any of that stuff. I don't take any pills ever. Um, you have to be as crazy as I am to wonder like what is the what does necessarily do? Well, we've been taught falsely that they correct a chemical imbalance. Okay, if it's an imbalance, what's the baseline? There's no answer to that. What's the actual diagnosis of say bipolar disorder? Unknown. There is none. >> No. >> So on the basis of that's not science at all. That's witchcraft. >> It's a questionnaire. >> But on the basis of it, they prescribe drugs which do not correct a chemical imbalance. They limit emotional range. And limiting emotional range is taking someone's soul. Emotional range is your soul. Like that's what it is. You feel sad when someone dies. You feel joyful when something great happens. That's what it is to be alive. That's called >> the human experience. So, by the way, the effects of this unintended but very common effects include genital amnesia. You know what that is? That's when you feel nothing between your knees and your navl permanently. And there are tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands cuz 1/5if of the entire American population is on SSRIs, >> who feel nothing, >> who are permanently sexually disabled by these drugs. Now, are there people you know or I know personally who were going to kill themselves and they got on an SRI and they didn't? That's a massive success. Thank God for that. There is no indication ever for prescribing an SSRI for 5 years, 10 years. Same with benzo which are also prescribed. Same with empmphetamines that we give to our children. The whole country is adultled on drugs and it's changing the nature of people and making them into something that is less than people and it should be banned immediately. >> 100% agree. >> I think it's crazy that it's happening. I mean, we're giving kids speed. We're giving them meth and good people are doing it. people I know that I'm related to who love their who would die for their children are told by doctors air quotes doctors who know nothing about the long-term effects because they've never been studied to put their kids on meth and they do because they love their children. >> I want to I want to make sure we we get to a couple of other things. Tucker, just react to what happened this weekend in Charlotte on the train with the woman who was stabbed by >> I think it's got to be a turning point. I mean I I think that the number one thing you don't want >> How can there be just a coordinated suppression? How does that happen? >> Well, that's, you know, this is how people wind up with really dark theories about what's happening because why would you suppress that if a young woman, by the way, Ukrainian? I I wish I I wish cost plusdrugs.com was here so I could ask him, but like if you really >> cost plusdlessdrugs.com I wish I could ask if you care about the Ukrainian people. One was just stabbed to death on a train for being white. Why doesn't anybody say it? Where all the Where's Bill Crystal on this? Like we love the Ukrainians. one just got stabbed in the neck on public transportation and no one cares. Like what? I don't I don't have an answer to your question. I will say that the one thing you have to worry about in a multi-thnic society is ethnic conflict because it's enduring. It doesn't go away. It's generational and we are moving toward that. She was stabbed because she was white and everyone knows that actually. And knowing that and not being able to say anything about it because you fear you're going to be called names doesn't make the problem go away. It makes you move to Bosezeman and it makes the problem worse. >> And that's what you're seeing. Everyone I know who can afford it is moving to Bosezeman or Jackson or you know Sun Valley or whatever. But they all have one thing in common. Okay, let's just stop lying. >> And I don't like that. >> Okay. Because that suggests a future of ethnic conflict which is like ask anybody from a country that has ask a Belgian Belgium has ethnic conflict. So this is inherent to the human condition and you want to be very thoughtful in trying to avoid it and things like that exacerbate it like to a crazy crazy animal level that >> Tucker let me just ask do you three three parts to this but short >> do you believe that there is rising anti-semitism in the west and why do people say that you are contributing to it why has that become >> well I think there's rising anti-semitism on the left and right there's definitely rising anti-semitism for sure. And I hate it. >> You don't have to believe me. >> You hate it on the record, right? >> Of course I hate it. >> Yeah, because there's a lot of social media, a lot of this coordinated effort from large industry groups saying Tucker Carlson is an anti-semite. Why is that the case? >> Attacking my children over it. Yeah, I I'm aware. >> Yeah. >> Um and I actually called an Israeli official who I know, I know a bunch of them, including the prime minister, and said, "Why are you doing this to me? If you think I'm your enemy, man, you're you're really out to lunch." And they're totally out to lunch. and they I've never seen anybody um mismanage anything the way the government of Israel is mismanaging the response to what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank. And the way to the way to and it's not my country, but I'm just noticing that this is really bad for everybody. Two things. One, you have to be willing if I stand up and say, you know, I'm an American. My family's been here for 300 years, 400 years, and I love this country, but my government's done a lot of horrible things. No one's like, you hate America. If you're like, I love Israel and I like Israel. I'm a visitor to Israel, frequent visitor to Israel and but this is not good. Shut up. That's not helpful at all. Like you turn your allies into enemies by acting that way. A B conflating a nation state with an ethnic group is not a long-term strategy. It's not wise because you are tied to the to the temporal politics, the politics of the moment. like BB's political I don't hate BB but his political fortunes individual political fortunes play a role in his calculation in everything that he does true with all politicians you want to tie an entire group to that I don't think that's very smart you can say I really like Israel I love Israel I have family in Israel whatever you think about Israel but like I don't think this is a good idea or I'm offended by it or whatever >> if you eliminate the distinction between a political organization which is a synonym for government and an ethnic group. Boy, you're going to hurt that ethnic group. And that's exactly what's happened. It's it's so bad and it freaks me out. And I I will say once again that my views on Israel apply to the United States. They apply to Sagal. They apply to Malaysia. They apply to people, >> but not to the Jewish people. >> Come on, dude. No. Right. >> And and I'm not even I don't even fight back against it because I'm like, that's so low. I'm not playing your [ __ ] game. Okay. What my view is really simple. I don't think that it is allowable. It is the most immoral thing to punish the innocent. The United States government has punished the innocent a lot. They did it during CO. I yelled about it every night on Fox News. All governments do this because all leaders get carried away with hubris and they treat people like numbers or enemies or non-human beings and they kill them. I'm opposed to that. You should be. We're all opposed to that, by the way. I'm opposed when it happens in Gaza. I'm opposed when it happens in Texas. I'm opposed. I'm just opposed. And all of a sudden, we've reached this place where people are so over wrought and defensive. I came out and said something about, you know, I don't know. I'm glad we beat Imperial Japan. I'm kind of sad that we incinerated all those people with the atom bomb. Ben Shapiro did a whole segment about how I was like a quizzling or something. You hate America. No, I love America. That's why I don't ever want anybody to kill people who didn't do anything wrong. That is the basis of justice. We punish the guilty. We can argue about to what degree they should be punished. Should it be Norway where they get highspeed internet and massages or should it be, you know what I mean, Malawi where they rot in a cave? But why are we not allowed? We don't punish the innocent and that includes children. All children. >> Chucker, why are we not allowed to say we are absolutely saddened at the tragedy that happened on October 7th? And we're absolutely um appalled at watching people starve and innocents being killed in Gaza and not being able to get them a maid. Why can't you say both things and not be criticized? >> You should be. And I've decided that I'm old enough and I know God, now I sound like such a fraud. I know my heart, but like I you can feel the hate coming off people or whatever. I I would hear Obama talks and I always really liked Obama before he became a senator, but I would hear him talk and it be like, "Wow, that's animated by hate." And it would be in this, this is your captain speaking voice, but it didn't matter. I was like my dogs, like I could feel what was in him. And I feel very confident in my views. I like people and I just feel that way and I'm not gonna play the game where I have to be like, "Oh, actually my wife is part Jewish or whatever." Which I can't play. I'm not going to do that. >> I think we should stand on principle. Don't punish the innocent. I don't care who you are. No one has a special dispensation that allows him or his country to punish the innocent. And if you do, I'm going to call you on it. >> Okay. And and let me just back up in L of a final question. So, I just want to back up Tucker on this that the base of conservatism is not believing that any government is sacred. >> Thank you, David Saxs. >> Every government should be subject to criticism because we know that they will always abuse their authority. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. All governments must be subject to criticism. And governments shouldn't seek to make themselves immune- by essentially calling people names. And you know, I've known Tucker for 30 years. He doesn't have an anti-semitic bone in his body. And it really pisses me off the way that he gets attacked for criticizing the conduct of a government. >> I'm not even that critical, by the way. That's the hilarious thing. I'm not even that critical. Like I have been around people do shitty things and I'm not like >> I think I think for what it's worth, you're an American treasure and I appreciate that you >> Yeah. And Sax, as we wrap here, >> tell us about the me cute moment when you met Tucker and you fell in love with Dr. Love Tucker. Me. Give us the meat cute. You come around a cubicle. What happens? You see the He's got the bow tie. >> You guys lock eyes. How did it >> Yeah. What happens? It was at lunch in Union Station in Washington DC. I'll never forget. >> Tell us s your earliest memory of Tucker. >> Just uh camaraderie born of of some common views. So >> yeah. >> And can I say one thing about David? David was saying, I don't even get into it, but he was saying things that now would be considered well, of course, but at the time were like pretty brave. I thought he had written a book and I was and we had a mutual childhood friend and I was like super impressed because he was saying things that the people around him would be like, "You don't need to say that. >> Why are you doing that?" And he was just totally principled. Completely principled. And you just don't meet that many people like that. >> You have a you have a straight shot to the presidency. Are you going to take it? you Tucker Carlson >> to being president. >> You have your your fans want it. They want you to run. You have the audience. >> You have the skill. You have the intellect. >> Would you consider public service? >> Not even for a second, but if I did, I would be like, >> JohnF Kenny was very moderate actually on almost everything. They killed him anyway, >> so like I'd make it about 10 minutes. >> Self-preservation is a strong I I get the Jack Ruby kind of cancer. Who knows where he got it? You know, >> ladies and gentlemen, Tucker Carlson Carlson. Thank you, crushing it, brother. Thank you.