New SEC Chair, Bitcoin, xAI Supercomputer, UnitedHealth CEO murder, with Gavin Baker & Joe Lonsdale

hey everybody hey everybody before we drop this week's amazing episode just some quick information for you saak and chamoff both had the week off so we had two Amazing Friends of the pod on Gavin Baker from at trees and Joe Lonsdale from 8 VC what a treat to have them on the program but there is some big news huh freeberg yeah well the news dropped after we recorded so it's not going to be referenced and the show might feel a little stale but here we go our friend David Sachs is the White House Ai and cryptar of the United States of America congratulations to our boy amazing super thrilled that is a big reason why he wasn't able to join us for the show he was in the middle of getting this news ramped up yes it came out we had already recorded yeah take that into account as we go into the show yes and uh according to Trump's truth social post saxell quote guide policy for the administration in artificial intelligence and cryptocurrency he will also lead the presidential Council of advisers for science and Technology huh how great is that freir wow science Corner in the White House can't wait it's going to be fun ex pretty awesome I have no announcements uh the rumors about me becoming press secretary are obviously premature but if ask to serve I will serve my country okay let's get to it don't worry besties all in isn't going anywhere we'll be here every week for you except maybe Thanksgiving or a holiday now and again all right let's start the show huh free bar great episode let's go all right everybody Welcome to the all in podcast I am your host Jason calacanis how you doing freedberg I'm hanging in there I'm waiting for the tsunami to hit it's gonna we're about 40 minutes away I'm a little anxious right now more anxious than normal is what you're saying like on a scale of one to freeberg this is like as anxious as you get with this tsunami I don't know what's gonna happen this current warning shows a 5 foot water rise or 5 meter I can't tell God I really hope we don't this episode and there's like a total disaster it we're not going to make light of it it we get warnings once in a while just to give everybody a little perspective here I'm at David Sax's house I've taken over as you can see I got my Monclair hat on freeberg I uh I found Sax's robe see this year it was Sax's robe but I got a red Sharpie and I just crossed it out and I put Jal on it and then I I went down and I was talking to Chef does sax know that you're staying at his house he knows I'm staying here but does he though he doesn't know that I found the actual cavar let your winners [Music] ride we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy [Music] with with us today chamath couldn't make it this week and had surgery and now he looks like Gavin okay yes yeah and saaks is taking a day off he's he's he's got the day off today I think he's just winning too much with us two substitutes to jump in here for the team cackling you can hear uh the cackling Joe Lan there's Joe lale take my mon Clair hat off here J I'm also winning too much but I'm happy to be here last minute as a as a sub for David J J Joe lale for people who don't know is to the right of David saaks he is venture capitalist and he started a couple of companies you might have heard of them paler I what are the other Greatest Hits adapar adapar just across trillion dollars reported on it this month it's a good real company too yeah open go sold this year we we saw start of a bunch of Cong good yeah um Joe uh gets he's you're a little bit lower profile than all these accomplishments it's pretty incredible co-founded how many billion dollar companies have you co-founded now I don't know maybe six or so six or so uh also with us Gavin Aker from a treaties he is a hedge fund manager he does Private he does public one of the smartest guys I know great analyst welcome to the program Gavin friend of the Pod thank you Jay Cal happy to be here great to see everybody yeah we are experiencing a huge Trump bump the election is over the cabinet is being assembled and we're seeing do the department of government efficiency as well as maybe regulations being pulled down and and we'll we'll get to to our first topic about our new SEC chair but just generally speaking aan as a market participant for a living what's your take on what we've seen over the last three weeks since the election results came in so if they execute unstated plans and there are some of the world's greatest execution machines involved um you know Elon generally does what he says he is going to do MH um like I this is going to be awesome for America for markets for the world and the analogy I keep coming back to is Sai Nella taking over a CEO of Microsoft Microsoft was a monopoly incredibly advantaged it had just been horribly mismanaged for years all he had to do to start winning was stop doing really really dumb things and that's an incredible place to be you know America like we're the greatest country country you know we've got you know oceans on two sides peaceful neighbors incredible natural resources you know completely you know can produce our our own food and energy like in many ways most privileged country on Earth but sometimes with great privilege comes great like stupidity and California to me would be a leading example of that most in many ways most privileged state in America and a predator away with bad policies and I do think one thing that everyone of all political Stripes agrees on is there are too many regulations that result in far too many administrators far too much complexity and an inability to build things in America so you know it was used very effectively and as it should have been against the Harris Administration that they'd approved $42 billion for Rural Broadband hadn't built anything had approved $40 billion for Ev charges or whatever it was hadn't done anything and it's not that they didn't want to you know dig trenches and do Broadband they didn't want to make EV Chargers their own regulations prevented them so I just think deregulation and simplifying regulations and the tax code is going to lead to an immense amount of growth which is something that all Americans should be happy about Joe you want to maybe give us your take I know obviously you're very vocal you're obviously a conservative run a think tank and have strong feelings on all this but there is consensus I think amongst all Americans that we don't like fraud waste abuse and those items those seem to be consensus building uh efficiency and paying low lower taxes all of that seems like something almost all Americans most Americans can get behind so I guess maybe a little bit of your take on what we've seen in the markets and the plan and then also are you going to be involved in this at all well listen listen J I think I do agree I think almost all reasonable Americans can see that our growth is ridiculously constrained and I think Jeff Bezos was saying yesterday like we need a growth oriented mindset if we're g to get out of our debt problems out of our deficit problems so it's nice to see everyone kind of coming on the team and saying yeah we need to fix these things I think what people don't understand is like just how broken the government bureaucracy bureaucracies and regulations are right it's not like they're kind of sort of bad like it's it's almost like they're companies that went bankrupt like think of the worst company you know Silicon Valley they went bankrupt like 30 years ago and imagine if someone just like kept pumping money into that worst company you know over like 30 years to keep hiring people so like Yahoo or AOL like some Legacy company was failing it take the worst Department there and then like the worst Department gets the most money so it's like it's like it's it's like more I guess you can use the word now it's more than anything you've seen in a long time and and I think one of the important things is America used to have these really hard test for 100 years you know this in 1883 we said you know what we shouldn't just hire our friends if someone's going to run something in government let's have these tough tests kind of like China China did for thousands of years and and and for a hundred years we had really hard test if when we went to the moon when we fought the world wars you know we did them inhan project the people making those decisions and hiring people had to pass things that really only like five 10% of people could pass who took them and then in the late 70s we said not only are these tests racist so we can't test people anymore of any background we also can't fire people anymore because we're going to give them tons of protections so for and so the last 40 years it just got dumber and then 10 years ago you started doing all the virtue signaling and and you know hiring based on your identity versus based on anything else so so it's got even worse and so now it's so broken that yes we're letting tens of billions of dollars on Fire And so there's really two things here one you got to take a chainsaw as Elona said you got to take a chainsaw and just like cut a ton of broken stuff but then day two is you got to say how do we make this not stupid in the future and there's things like maybe you bring back tests maybe you bring accountability thing I the thing I'm most passionate about is you know right now there's over a million rules to the federal level it's stuff that everyone disagrees on you can be the most left person trying to build like solar or wind or whatever and you're like what I have to do what study over how many years this makes no sense so so we gota we gotta we gotta take these regulations and not only cut them but we got to make a data driven system that forces regulations to defend themselves and that way instead of having a cancer that just grows forever out of control you could actually have a process that like naturally things naturally makes things fight for himself and that that way doesn't get as dumb ever again I would why not just make them automatically sunsetting after five years if they're not renewed exactly but make the process to renew them difficult and data driven exactly so they yeah yeah exactly so if you renewing them will take so much time that it will slow it down I wonder where we got to the place freedberg I will bring you in on this since really I think it was maybe two or three years ago you started to point out exactly the death spir going to get in I want to give you a flowers here on the Pod because from this pod and your obsession uh and you're harping on and on about this national debt problem you saw it early you talked about it constantly you brought a lot of consensus on board and now we're seeing it as the issue of the transition is the debt and we were sitting here for the past year or two saying when are politicians going to even pay attention to this and now they are paying attention to it so first here's your virtual flowers how are you feeling about the transition to date well I mean I think first of all there's like three layers of the problem which I've been trying to Har on for almost four years number one is the inefficiency and lack of accountability which Joe and Gavin are obviously talking about and that leads to excessive spending and that leads to the debt problem and the debt problem creates this kind of arithmetic debt death spiral which is um something you don't want to find yourself in so that's the inevitability that I've been kind of really worried about and I think that you know look there's uh the first derivative and second derivative can kind of get addressed and then hopefully you don't get to the absolute point where you have this breaking breaking point I I think right now everyone's banking number one on can we deregulate in a way that can unlock growth and by unlocking growth the right the the the the kind of arithmetic argument is grow GDP because you're not going to be able to shrink debt super fast uh in order to grow GDP there there needs to be some unleashing happening and so if you can get GDP to grow four five % and you can minimize the excess spending meaning you can minimize the deficit the federal deficit and therefore minimize the increment in in the debt level the debt to GDP ratio becomes more manageable because ultimately you can only tax so much of GDP so yeah I feel like this is important in both senses one is just cut the inefficient wasteful spending get rid of the regulations and that'll unleash the necessary growth one of the proxies I Look to and I I think that this is going to be kind of the critical motivating factor for the United States whether it's this Administration or the next or on a continuous basis there's going to be this kind of moment where we're going to look across the water at what China has and you can see what China's getting what China is making what China is doing I've talked about this a lot as well and I do think this is the most critical metric that no one talks about as much as I think we should which is the increment in electricity production capacity in China compared to the United States and so we are going from one terawatt to two terawatts they're going from I think two to eight over the same time period and they're doing so important for the people who are listening who think you're saying I'll let Joe I'll let Joe answer that Joe go ahead just unpack it for the audience I mean I obviously understand why this is important but I want you to the number one thing I'd say is it's usually correlated to how well the working class is doing in your country to per capita GDP to cost of goods I mean obviously I care about it because we want to scale AI for all the things we're doing and we want to be able to do it effectively but if you just look over time it's really clear the relationship between how well is your average working middle class person doing and their their quality of life their cost of life and the cost of electricity and cost of power and it's it's crazy we're not just like ramping up and cutting things to do this more electricity means more automation means more AI means more things are being done for the for every person that are being done in factories or being done by machines and that unlocks um a new kind of level of living and that's been kind of a continuous process for humans there's this guy that writes these books that Bill Gates always talks about V Smith smear name SM SM he's got all these books on the history of the relationship between energy and kind of prosperity there's definitely correlation there and there's definitely causation there Gavin and I there's even like really simple ones I don't know if you've ever seen Lewan Yu from you know the founder of Singapore essentially talk about just how air conditioning change the country's fate it raises average IQ by two or three points it really matters but look I meend day at the end of the day my my key point was we have to make sure that this Administration and Joe can hear me on this and I know he he believes this but for me it has to be such a priority that we um accelerate a nuclear uh energy roll out in the United States because that's what China's doing they have dozens of Gen 4 reactors that are going to get built built out Each of which has a gwatt of production capacity and they're doing it at a cost that we can't compete with today but fundamentally they can do it in the US we can't even do it and regulations it goes back to Joe yeah and so so regul the regulatory structure prohibits our ability to actually expand energy capacity or electricity production capacity which is a critical difference and that ultimately leads to a situation where in 10 years we're going to be looking across the water at you know a competitive country that has 3x 4X the electricity production capacity of our country and everything is cheaper everything is faster it gives them superiority in a lot of functions that we can't this this is a key national security thing too because we need manufacturing here to be affordable and competitive in order to for National Security you know David when you when you texted me last minute to join this I was actually in a meeting with our friend from Founders fund who's building nuclear fuel again for the first time in the US that's actually gone away too and so so that needs to be approved but you know I know Chris Wright he's a nominee for the new you know energy a Secretary of Energy and he you know he's super pro Liberty guy but super pro cheap cheap energy guy and he's Pro Nuclear So I think we have some really great people who care about this we're gonna be fighting hard for it what's what's your read on it yeah what's your read on energy and the blockers yeah I mean more nuclear more better like I mean I agree with everything Joe said and the only thing I would just add is it is the most environmentally friendly kind of energy source some way it's even more like I I think think it is highly likely that in my lifetime the world just runs on solar like if you just you know we all know compound interest is the greatest force on Earth but if you just look at the rate at which photovoltaic cell efficiency is compounding battery efficiency is compounding and people make these balance of system arguments but it it it will it will never be as cheap as nuclear but it will likely approach coal and I think a lot of the world will run on solar but that's going to take 50 years um nuclear is arguably just as environmentally friendly done right and carefully and it is here now and so I just yeah I mean that's yeah I I don't want I it is unbelievable to watch not exactly Mor's law but this precipitative drop in the cost of just solar panels solar solar's very solar's very impressive but in some ways to me it's a little dystopian to think about all these forests just covered with this stuff I it's rate limiting it's rate limitting you have you have to have many many acres rolled out and with nuclear you can have a building that can you know power the equivalent of many acres so the answer's both the answer is both but it is like Elon has tweeted many times about the tiny fraction of you know deserted um desert areas of America that need to be covered with panels and then you put in batteries there's still a space limiting like let's just fast forward a 100 years on planet Earth and if you look at the past 100 years and the 100 years before that like energy demand uh even on a on a per capita basis has this nonlinear kind of scaling problem and that means that land consumption will scale nonlinearly now we have it if we're gonna say 100 years though I mean so interrupt you're gonna say 100 years technology changes it's very clear you could probably do it from space if you really wanted to I mean this sounds crazy but you probably could have like tons of these in space 100 years is far I mean we have we have enough uranium in just the crust of the you know like Norther hemisphere to in other words power to power everything we on thege of unlimited energy for all time just to wrap this up and move us on if we can get out of our own way get out of our own way with a bunch of midwit who have put so much regulation in place and who are working from home for four hours a week if we can just get them out of the way then maybe we could approve some nuclear reactors and a little more solar batter did you just call did you just call government workers midwidth is that just the ones who are block if you're not blocking and you're working 50 hours a week God bless a lot of people working hard in the government I that's exactly my point but there's some number of them who are just obviously do not see the forest through the trees by the way on that point Jal it is interesting Texas is the number one solar producer in the country and it's not because everybody there is more environmentally conscious no we're not that liberal subies it's just it's easy to build stuff in Texas build solar power plants this is I mean for the Libs in cities who are so Pro solar and anti- natural gas or whatever yeah look at Texas they're just build as much as you want and where Joe and I live in Austin home prices have gone down two years in a row rent has gone down two years in a row they are building like lunatics because you don't need to beg and and bribe people to build stuff Joe maybe some thoughts on what we've seen in regulation Austin Austin city council is not perfect Austin they called the blueberry and the tomato soup so there may be a tiny bit of begging going on but despite that you're able to build there and everywhere else around You're Building like M so it works there's there's there's plenty of Supply I agree speaking of Regulation Gary Gensler is out Paul Atkins is in uh and Bitcoin just cracked a 100 this is all obviously related Atkins was previously SE commissioner under Bush 2 in the early 2000s in the 90s he worked for both Bush one and Clinton at the SEC according to the New York Times Atkins is admired among DC Legal C circles and Regulators he's Pro crypto and he's been helping draft some best practices for the crypto trading platforms as you know Gary gensler's approach to crypto was there's a rule set follow the rule set we're not here to change the rules we're here to enforce them good luck and in some cases I think maybe he was right with icos and a bunch of scams but he also gave good actors no path to go forward anybody have strong feelings on this I love Paul J keelly I think he's I think he's gonna he's a fair guy yeah I've met him several times at conferences and groups and he's really smart guy cares about the rules cares about helping innovators I the thing that really pissed off you wenter off with Gary I mean I love you've probably seen like I think I think uh I think both coinbase with Brian and the winlos twins that put something out they won't even hire anyone who worked with Gary on any of this stuff they were doing and the reason they're that angry at them is they were purposely not defining the rules in certain cases and then going after people after not having to it in order to kind of like play a Goa game that was very dishonorable and Paul sees all that and there's no way he's going to allow that Gavin any thoughts here on how this might change regulations in our business also the fund business Joe is a venture capitalist hvc uh you in public markets and funds I have I do preedee so yeah what do you think in terms of funds and regulations there and then crypto and and you know the SEC may be becoming Innovative as opposed to punitive and you know what's the word for freed BG what's the word I'm looking for here adversarial well they are a regulator they are a regulator but they don't also seem they seem to have gone beyond just regulating they seem to have been aggressively adversarial yeah I mean they're regulatory enforcement agency that's their job so I I don't know like you know I mean but not giving a path or not even meeting with people I think that was the thing that I felt was kind of weird like they meet with you if you were a big donor to the left they wouldn't meet with you otherwise that was part of it too that was sketchy that was why SPF got tons of meetings but Brian got none right I mean it's nonsense like that ah go I do think cryptocurrencies yeah go ahead at some level fundamentally reduce the power of nation states and that is something that is of professed by the True Believers but it is true and so if you um are on the left and you know you are um a devout believer in the power of the state to do good things I get why you not like cryptocurrencies you know at the same time we're very early in crypto I do think I read with interest all of the post that David Marcus and his peers at Libra made um made about what happened to them Libra was a Facebook project to embrace cryptocurrency at a very intrinsic level onto the sort of identity level of every one of their billions of users and I think you can argue it would have been really really good for not just America but the ENT World um you know there are a lot of immigrants in American in America who send remissions back to their home countries at extremely high um predatory rates yes yeah predatory rates it would have made that free and that would have been amazing for a lot of really hardworking um people all over the world it would have you know Visa Mastercard they do charge big fees I mean not Visa Mastercard do not charge big fees but the um credit card complex and aggregate is a is a reasonably big fee I mean everybody oh it's just you know two two and a half percent to make it you know perfect and safe um I think Facebook had a sound argument that they could have done that cheaper and that would have been an efficiency game for America and it really did bum me out you know to read some of the letters that they sent the way they killed Libra if anyone doesn't know and maybe we can you can pull up David Marcus's post they just all these politicians sent letters to participants and financial markets saying we don't know if they are doing anything wrong but we think they probably are and we're going to look at this very closely and we want to discourage you from participating it was wor it was worse than that it was like a mafia letter it was like if you are to support this and help with this we are going to look into everything else you are doing and we may then find some issues it was it was like a mafia threat we can't stop you legally but watch out like it was really sketchy it was shered brown who who now is out of office who led this senator from Ohio but it was it was really bad it was really bad what they were doing it was really bad I found it upsetting as an American and and it's you you kind of hinted at this Gavin the fear of governments is that they will lose control of money supply and monetary policy maybe unpack that a bit and then freeberg will go to you on the same sort of uh thread yeah I mean look it's a it is a rational fear I mean controlling monetary Supply like at some level the you know the greatest you know Powers we give the state are a monopoly on violence to keep us safe um and you know control over the money supply has you know a means of exchange a unit of account um and those are great Powers particularly if you're America and your reserve currency the only thing I would just say to balance this out um and I do think people are are very positive on Paul Atkins I've never met him but the reaction from people who know him like Joe and who I respect has been very positive is important to remember we have the best Capital markets in the world you know the US equity and fixed income markets are the most trusted places on Earth and we can always make them better but just it is very you know you you want to be very Vigilant about keeping them fair and keeping out things like inside information which makes people feel comfortable doing business here you know making you know having investors have confidence in a company's financial statements and those fincial markets are one reason America is such a great country and Gavin to put this in context this was during a time period this David Marcus Libra process when they felt certain people in government and I'm not saying I endorse this but this is their position Zuckerberg had too much power Zuckerberg was censoring people the right felt they were being censored the left felt that Cambridge analytica and people were using targeting the first Le the general Vibe and even JD Vance is kind of was in on this as well was too much power specifically at meta too much influence now they've got this many people this penetration and the algorithm plus we're going to give them money and they're going to have power over people's wallet and then what does the government have they can't censor people they can't control the message and they can't control the pur strings that that is the time period we're talking about here oh no no I understand 100% why they did it I just think as an American at a minimum the way that they did it yeah was to you know use one of Joe's phrases dishonorable you know if you if you want to say that we're going to kill this then just like let's have a debate as a nation absolutely don't do it in Shadows yes rule of law rule of law is also another reason America is a great country yes freberg your thoughts on Dave marcus' comments and this sec pick and and just generally a more Pro less regulation kind of situation I think the is like one of the most important agencies we have and I think they're one of the best federal agencies so I've worked with them and I've worked with any other agencies and there's all these issues with the SEC but they play a very important job and if you've worked in in foreign markets and you've dealt with foreign Securities Regulators you're going to be like thank God for the SEC like can't wait to go back this whole crypto thing I there there's there's a distinction I think between Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies as speculative kind of assets speculative trading what do you see those differences as well I I definitely concur with Gavin I think Bitcoin fundamentally is meant to be supposed to be ultimately will become a real threat to the US dollar and it's kind of ironic that Trump had this declaration this week yeah that he's going to put 100% tariff on All These Bricks Nations that try to participate in an alternative currency to the US dollar the greatest currency on earth when he literally turns around and then says we're going to support Bitcoin it felt like the biggest irony of the week to me because I do think Bitcoin is the big threat to the US dollar and I do think that at some point whether it's this Administration or the next they're going to wake up to that fact and maybe the the Bitcoin does you know the network State concept does emerge and that's where we end up but I do think we want to have and are going to have a strong federal government in the United States for quite some time that's going to play an important role in everyone's lives here and I don't know if you can really just say let the dollar you know be supplanted by Bitcoin Bitcoin seems to be a more of a safe haven asset and that seems to be the trade that it's store value should be kind of store value and alternative it's just gonna take over gold what do you think you think um the state has reasonable concerns about crypto competing with it and then maybe specifically when you saw Trump talking about hey congratulations on your Bitcoin I did this for you on 100K and taking credit for it at the same which he should take credit for it he did it he did that last $40,000 per coin and then you see him talking about the bricks and then we have the US currency so which is a bigger threat to American uh exceptionalism and Supremacy on planet Earth Bitcoin or bricks so one represents a move towards Liberty and what one represents a move towards authoritarianism if bricks were to become dominant if China and Russia were able to control global currency together and and other players that is terrible it's bad for the US for so many reasons bad for us consumer for so many reasons he's right to fight it at the same time having you know to channel biology having this like Pro Liberty Network State like like forces in that direction like for example I think rather than just you know Hong Kong and Singapore Hong Kong's been lost we should have like more Hong Kong and singapor in the west to compete with the US that'd be good for all of us who are on the pro Freedom side of the US and make the US wealthier would show examples of of new experiments that create great wealth and then that's kind of the side of Bitcoin is you want more experiments and competition from the Liberty distributed side you don't want competition from the authoritarian side so to me it was very consistent yeah well I would just say Texas is the Singapore of America you know and it is putting pressure on the rest of America and I don't say that just because I grew up in Texas um it's just a fact I do think longterm Bitcoin I do not think the bricks will ever be able to replace the dollar just rule of law even if it has occasionally been corrupted in America is very very powerful yes as opposed to rule by law and but I do think Bitcoin will at some point be a serious threat to the US dollar and that just is what it is and we'll see how different administrations react would that it's a check on it's a check on the most aggressive mistakes first of all if the debt is doesn't get under control if our deficit is ridiculous Bitcoin is a wonderful check on that you actually want healthy competition from something good because you want to check the excess is and the craziness you want you you need someone coming from the outside to say no don't do that let's just say at some point an AOC like person gets in charge it could happen in the next 20 years you need some kind of check on the dollar and it's much better to come from the Liberty side than from the other side I agree with all that I will just say on AOC I thought it was very interesting I think if you're a Democrat I think you're probably largely heartened by the kind of intellectual leaders of that party their reaction to losing you know it's focused around hey we do need to D regulate it is too hard build Josh Shapiro's been tweeting every three days about how he's making it easier you know to do business in Pennsylvania it used to take 20 days to become get a hairdresser license now it takes an hour all that is good um but I actually thought AOC who is a very talented politician she's an extraordinary Communicator she's an extraordinary Communicator her reaction was like she posted this on Instagram if you voted for Trump I want to hear why I want to hear the things you listen to that convinced you like I don't say this out of anything other than genuine curiosity basically clearly I am missing something and I you know I want to listen and I just thought that was a very interesting reaction that is the proper reaction yeah absolutely yeah I want to point out one thing I did I was doing some research uh before the show and I found this SEC speech this is uh really fascinating this is from 2007 from Paul and he was kind of giving his State of the Union here and he talking about doing some self-reflection and he's talking about accreditation rules in 2007 before the great financial crises the concept of economic risk and return also affect a different proposal of the commission the SEC relating to private investment funds specifically part of The commission's Proposal proposal would add an additional requirement for any natural accredited person to have at least 2.5 million investments before he or she could invest in private investment F in a private investment fund like AE fund or private Equity Fund other than a venture capital fund the underlying premise for the commission's proposal is that these types of Investments are too risky for individuals other than the very rich therefore we would have to presume that the non-rich are either unsophisticated or lack access to sophistication and it is simply not tolerable to have these types of people at risk of losing their money on a hedge fund assuming that these premises are true however what Evans does the commission have to support the conclusion that private investment funds are the most risky what makes a hedge fund fund or a private Equity Fund more risky than a venture capital fund great question and how does the risk profile of a pulled investment compare with the risks of investing in Securities of a single issue for which this new 2.5 million standard is this is where it gets super interesting many public comment letters Express indignation at the commission's proposal one commentator wrote stay out of my wallet stop trying to protect me from myself stop presuming to know more than I do about my own life risk tolerance and financial sophistication the commission's pr me very well prevent the non-rich from losing their money in private investment funds but it also certainly will prevent the non-rich from participating in any upside profits and gains on these funds does this mean the rich get richer while the non-rich should be content to just hold their place on the economic ladder this to me when I saw this I was like you know what I am feeling absolutely fantastic about Trump if he stops these wars or stops one out of two and keeps us out of you know participating even though we're not on the around with the other any new ones and he removes regulations and we have people in power who understand that moving up the socioeconomic ladder is as important as protecting the downside risk especially when we see wealth polarization this is a great pick now the other picks there's some wackpack picks in there I'll be totally honest I don't know what the strategy is Joe I'll ask you that in a minute but what do we think um Gavin of this sort of approach here which is really thinking thoughtfully about what is sophisticated and and what are we doing here what is the outcome we're looking for yeah no I think it's great and you could just I mean the reality is a hedge fund that runs with a lot of Leverage probably is more risky I don't know that it's more risky than a single security but um like at the end of the day since he wrote that letter it was an incredible 15-year run for private equity and you know now all the big private Equity firms are making a huge effort now um when probably the business is more mature and maybe the return opportunities aren't what they were to appeal to Main Street America like it would have been cool if you know Blackstone or KKR or whoever in 070809 2010 you know could have had their fund up on like the Fidelity Marketplace for subscription that probably would have been good for America so I think his comments are well taken imagine if Elon could raise for SpaceX like you know from regular Americans I'm sure he would have loved to do that if it wasn't crazy risky with the SEC right so there's all these people they're blocking us from letting the average person be part of it it does keep them from climbing the well flatter I think it's crazy yeah freeberg any thoughts here I mean this has been my pet peeve for a long time is letting people do what they want with their money if you don't allow people to take risk with their money and move up from poor to middle class from middle class to upper middle class and maybe eventually becoming affluent Jason there's a lot of places people can invest their money they can buy public stocks there there's $20 trillion of public stocks they can buy I don't think that you're prohibiting people from transitioning their wealth like banss by not being able to buy private stocks in fact I think it's more likely than not that people are going to go market  Securities in private markets and rip poor people off even worse and that's why there are these regulatory kind of barriers and I don't think that it's necess look everyone says let's make it everything free and everything libertarian seems like a good idea until someone gets punched in the face gets ripped off someone dies from a drug you know that's not properly tested and then we're all like where were the Regulators where were the agencies to protect the individuals and I think that's the role that these agencies are are kind of providing and that's the reason these rules are in place I don't think that this is like one of these things where oh Liberty's being denied I think it's you know there's a there's a care there's a careful line to walk I'm generally pretty CC in most things so I agree with what a lot of David said and I do think if you were to allow ordinary Americans to buy private companies that are held to a lower standard of disclosure and Reporting than public companies like something would have to change like you know just hey if if a private company wants to like public companies are you know are held to certain standards for reason TW the numbers and non financials and yeah and there is a lot of fraud in Venture there are unethical people there are and smart diligent people can't even find it all you know that's it's like the smartest most diligent people are still getting ripped off yeah I mean look at FTX I mean I mean FTX ripped off some very very intelligent friends of ours did did any diligence at FTX yeah but well which is an important part of this but I mean if you had a sophistication I mean there's such an easy solution to this you just do a sophistication test people take a 5 hour course and they answer 50 questions the end like a driver's license well I do think it is a little that's why I talked about private Equity these are extremely sophisticated institutions who are always in vesting alongside their clients y um and they're buying established businesses they're putting leverage on them but like I think private Equity is kind of a middle ground and a on a pooled basis I think you could argue and you know maybe those funds would need to change their reporting and their disclosures to deal with kind of the average American but um and by that I mean strengthen it but I think private Equity his comments were well taken that's what I would say Joe what are your thoughts yeah I mean I think the AL here the alha of the room that's really funny here is that you have the people on the left saying the only people with lots of money are smart enough to be allowed to do this which I think is just a very funny position to take if you just like you have to have a few million dollars to be sophisticated enough to be allowed do this I like your idea JC of a test like like there should be there should be some other way of accessing this if you really want to I me I agree I agree listen I don't want to live in a world where we're all constantly being spammed to the average person by like stupid Financial stuff that's just like we would be scammed all the time there probably should be some rules like I agree I I'm not like a total libertarian on this I think it'd be really annoying but yeah but just to totally block people from participating to me that sounds crazy like I mean a finance college professor you know might um unless they had another job might not you know be able to do $250,000 let's talk let's talk about a very important Public Market set of transactions G I'd like your point of view on Michael sailor's convertible note issuances being used to bitcoin the to which this morning this morning Bloomberg reported is the hottest trade in hedge funds right now Nick if you could pull up the article and then jel I know you've been an outspoken opinion Setter on Michael sailor's promotion of his Securities actions we'd love your point of view Gavin just say at some point this does get too big for a while when it was smaller you know you could support the debt sorry could you explain it could you explain it to everyone Kevin yeah so what he is doing is issuing debt and buying Bitcoin with the premise that Bitcoin is always going to go up and he you know has made eloquent arguments why why that is the case no trees grow to the sky and I think the interest expense on his convertible notes is 75 million off the top of my head and by the way I am I could care less about micro strategy like I'm not close to it I'm not involved yeah I don't know any hedge funds who own it no horse in the race yeah yeah I I think a lot of hedge funds are short micro strategy but I have no horse in the race but the but his the underlying business that you know pays the interest expense on the debt only does $400 million a year in revenue and it's you know high gross margin Revenue but I just unless debt investors have absolute confidence and Bitcoin has collateral and I don't think that's where fixed income markets are yet he it will get to a point where it is it is too big for the size of his company and then yeah maybe he can over collateralize it and you know have $10 in Bitcoin for every dollar of debt but then like the the magic money creation machine that you know I see discussed on X breaks down because that's like you know that's [Music] um that's very very different than what is being discussed today Joe do you have a point of you because Joe's got a run by the way so Joe you want to close this out defense people down here in La listen listen I am very bullish Bitcoin I love the all energy of our society around it I I agree with what you said Dave that there's like there needs to be some barriers for the public taking crazy risks and I think the risks around how he's accessing this is actually very unusual and does scare me a bit and people need to do their research so they shouldn't just like throw money without studying it it it does scare me a little bit how blly people are throwing money at this without knowing the kind of Leverage he's taking you know yeah Joe anything else you want to share that you're up to that you're excited about before you head out uh well you know uh I this this weekend is the annual Defense form at the Reagan Library we on the board it's the biggest biggest defense event of the Year everyone's coming and I I guess I guess I'm really excited that America has like woken up in assuming we can bring back more advanced manufacturing here I think there's enough top companies now with andrel with seric we're gonna be building thousands of these vessels for the Navy with AI uh with epis we're like turning things off you know 10 miles away whatever fairly far away with microwave radiation there some really cool technology coming that actually is going to make us be able to deter our enemies so if you ask me six seven years ago I was panicked we we're gonna like get way behind China I'm feeling really good about it now I think and and I think I think you know just this the Pete Heth pick uh you know is actually someone I'm quite bullish on from everything I'm hearing so I I think things are going the right direction is there a wholesale upgrade happening in defense in the United States are all systems and all strategies being rethought right now uh using technology and Innovation and kind of a performance-based product mindset leading uh kind of a reinvention of Everything Is that what's going to happen in the next four years Warfare is fundamentally totally shifted we're seeing some of this in Ukraine there's all sorts of new ways you want to swarm things on the LAN land swarm things in the water swarm things in the air how do they coordinate and how do they work together how do you manufacture enough of these things and and how do you use electronic warfare and new ways to you know it's basically created by this and so that it's just a whole new way of doing things and we are going that direction too much of the money David like 95% of the money is still going towards like frankly like wasteful Legacy like mostly things we don't need plus main but enough is Shifting and there's enough good people fighting and as long as we keep just allowing open competition to say okay which is better and just let the best things win as long as we keep doing that I think it's going the right way I'm feeling very good about it is the Chinese position shift in their technology strategy and their system strategy gonna motivate a shift here do you think shift underway already I mean it definitely already has so we don't we don't need big aircraft carriers we don't need f35s we need drones we need lasers I there's a ro I think there's a role for carriers and force projection I don't think we need like incrementally a ton more of them I don't I'm not I'm not like this radical where you get rid of all this but yeah on the margin I'd much rather have 10,000 more smart drones above and below the water than like an in incremental carrier right so there's there's on the margin there's all these things that are better uses of money and I think we're pushing that way and is there a huge tidal wave of venture money I was at a dinner last night where there was this conversation about defense Tech used to be off limits and a lot of LPA say you can't invest in defense companies that's now changed or is changing and everyone's kind of coming up with their own defense Tech strategy do you think I mean you were obviously in this cabin I don't know if you're an investor in the space but are you guys seeing a big shift yeah I I obviously you know listen there's only been nine unicorns I think still at this point and I started three of them and invested three of them the first round so I'm obviously pretty involved in in the space and I think listen it helps me if there's more money for my companies which is really great um right I think there's probably the right answer for the US is not going to be like a thousand businesses or 100 businesses it's gonna be it's gonna be like seven to 10 new primes one of them's obviously andal I think one is probably cic and epis we'll see but like there's going to be 7even to 10 new primes and that's what it's going to be so there's going to be a lot of zeros and a lot of bad Investments but yes these seven to 10 new primes are going to be huge and if you can get access to them you're gonna do really well Gavin how do you look at that market you agree I I agree with everything um Joe said the only thing I would just add on China what we are doing by restricting their access to Advanced um compute and advanced networking if you have read or watched the three three body problem America is unfolding a sofon over China yeah yeah that's great way I say it I have been really impressed with um some of the Chinese models that have come out and I think the risk to this strategy is necessity is the mother of invention and despite this handicap they're managing to stay just behind the Leading Edge of America which is amazing but you know nvidia's Blackwell chip comes out next year you're gonna have new chips from AMD new A6 from broadcom and I I think at that point it it is not going to be possible for them to keep up anymore so that's actually positive regulation and great in your mind foreign policy um it is very aggressive foreign policy yeah clearly you know that could have lots of unforeseen consequences yeah what do you think about the the rare earth trade restrictions coming to us and is that going to actually affect this Supply we have lots of rare earth here in America like in America we have everything in America like we you know and I think there's a project underway to restart Rare Earth production there ever ever to be a conflict all this stuff would go away it's it's it's a cost and it's allowing us to do the refining here so refining some of this stuff like we desperately need gallium gallium nitride for things I'm doing right with with like shooting the microwave radiation the problem is the refining is really messy if you let it happen in the US it will still be messy but it will be cleaner but we're not letting it happen so there's things like this ulation and obviously the cost here is different we have a different cost structure Joe you got to go meet 20 Senators so thank you we appreciate good times jcal do you want do you want to talk about AI with Gavin and I think that would be like a a great next place to go would be to talk about the supercomputer being built by friend of the Pod Elon he's now got the world's largest super computer and he's going to 10x it according to reports yeah and I would just say this is I think a very important moment for AI you know for this entire AI trade in public and private markets you know everybody I'm sure who watches your podcast is very aware of scaling loss and we have not had scaling loss for training or if you 10x the amount of compute used to train a model you significantly improve the intelligence and capability of that model and often there are these um you know kind of emergent properties that emerge alongside that that higher IQ no one thought it was possible to make more than 25,000 maybe 30,000 in 32,000 pick a number Nvidia Hoppers coherent and what coherent means is in a training cluster that each GPU to kind of simplify it knows what every other GPU is thinking so every GPU in that 30,000 cluster knows what the other 29,9 199 are thinking and you need a lot of networking to make that happen enabled by infiniband right uh infiniband and and I think even more importantly in vlink although a lot of ethernet is um you know never bet against the internet NE never bet against ethernet um like if you read the Llama 3.1 technical paper you know got a lot of people excited about skinny link ethernet but um just to slow down for the audience here Gavin maybe explain why trans sporting information between the gpus is important and we're talking we we're in the weeds here a little bit everybody's heard of ethernet but some of the other protocols and ways of moving stuff around large amounts of data that's what these h20s h100s do particularly well they'll move a couple of terabytes a second from One processor to the next processor yeah so um you know picture a server in the case of GPU it looks like maybe three pizza boxes stacked on top of each other and it has eight gpus together and those H gpus are connected today with something called NV link probably you can think of the speed of communication on chip is the fastest tip to memory next fastest you know um chip to chip within a server next fastest and so you take those units of servers which are connected the gpus are connected on the server with a technology called NV switch and you stitch them together with either infiniband or ethernet into a giant cluster and each GPU has to be connected to every other GPU and know what they're thinking they need to be coherent they need to kind of share memory for the compute to work the gpus need to work together for AI and no one thought it was possible to connect more than 30,000 of these with today's technology from public reports Elon has he so often does Focus deeply on this thought about it from first principles how long it should take the way it should be done and he came up with a very very different way of Designing a Data Center and he was able to make over 100,000 gpus coherent no one thought it was possible if uh I was I was a last minut ad for this but I would have said there were all these articles that were being published in the summer saying that no one believed he was going to be able to do it it was hype it was you know Ridiculousness and that was coming the reason the reporters felt comfortable writing those silly stories is because engineers at meta and Google and other firms were saying we can't do it there's no way he can do it he did it and I think the world really only believed it when you know Jensen did that podcast I think with uh was it with gersner am I with gers yeah it was with kerser and said um what Elon did was superhuman no one else could have done it and I actually think you can argue that Elon doing that in a lot of ways kind of Saved Nidia from a tough six-month period when Blackwell was delayed because everyone who was waiting for Blackwell and thought it was impossible to make a 100,000 Hoppers coherent rushed out and bought a lot of Hoppers to try and do it themselves now we will see if someone else is able to do it it was really really hard no one else thought it was possible and as a result of that gr 3 is in trading now on this giant Colossus supercomputer the biggest in the world 100,000 gpus Memphis the old Electrolux Factory and they're they're putting a lot of energy in there a lot of natural gas a lot of yeah a dingy Electrolux Factory yeah with a lot of Mega packs around it and the City of Memphis is all in unsupportive this yeah which is obviously smart for them but you have not had a real test of scaling laws for training arguably since gp4 and this will be the first test and if scaling lws for training hold grock 3 should be a significant advance in the state-ofthe-art that is an immensely you know from like a basian way to look at the world that is like an immensely important data point but it if that card doesn't work and I think it is going to work I think rock rock 3 is going to be really good I should note that I am with consumers yeah you're you're involved my firm is an investor in X got it yeah they they've raised a tremendous amount of capital A lot of it from the Middle East and they're supposedly going to build Colossus to a million gpus is the state of goal 10 times bigger than it is currently there's been some debate back and forth freeberg about hey are we hitting a wall here maybe you could explain the wall either of you to the audience yeah David well I'll I'll let Gavin speak to the wall I I mean Gavin I think one of the questions also is you know do we see an evolution if if the kind of increment in performance relative to the investment in net kind of training compute resources declines do we start to see a shift in um how the architecture of the systems are run meaning like do we start to build models of models and that starts to resolve a higher level architecture that unlocks new performative capabilities so I would just say we're already building models of models you know almost every application startup I'm aware of is chaining models you know you start with a cheap model you check the cheap models work with a more expensive model you know lots of very clever things are being done you know every every AI application company has what's called a router so they can you know swap out the underlying model if another one is better for the task at hand [Music] um as far as what the wall is there's been a big debate that we were hitting a wall on these scaling laws and the scaling laws were breaking down and I just thought that was deeply silly because no one had built a cluster bigger than you know 32,000 h100s and nobody knew it was it was a ridiculous debate and there were you know really smart people on both sides but there is there there's no new data grock 3 is the First new data point to support whether or not scaling laws are breaking or holding because no one else thought you could make a 100,000 Hoppers coherent and I think based on public reports they're going to 200,000 um Hoppers and then the next chck is a million it was reported they're going to be first in line for Blackwell but grock 3 is a big card and will resolve this question of whether or not we're hitting a wall the other question you raise David is very interesting and by the way we should note there is now a new axis of scaling some people call it test time compute some people call it inference scaling and basically the way this works you just think of these models as human the more you speak to one of these models the way You' speak to your like 17-year-old going off to take the SAT the better it will do for you as a human you know if I ask you David what's two plus two four flashes in your mind right away if I ask you to you know unify a grand unified theory of physics that accounts for both quantum mechanics and relativistic physics you will think for a lot longer we have been yeah nobody knows we have been giving these models the same amount of time to think no matter how complicated the question was what we now learned is if you let them think for longer about more complex questions test time compute you can dramatically improve their IQ so we're just at the beginning of this new scaling law but I think the question you rais on Roi is very good and I'm happy to address and there's a context window oh shift under way as well which also creates a new kind of scaling access arguably in terms of potential set of applications so networks of models think time context window there are multiple Dimensions upon which these these tools ultimately kind of resolve to better performance oh yeah we have even if scaling laws for training break we have another decade of innovation ahead of us exactly and and and as my understanding from speaking to folks I'm certainly not as deep in and well versed as you but there's a lot of effort and research going on in re-engineering various parts of the uh the stack to reduce energy to reduce every resource that effectively drives model performance to basically re-engineer architecture it was all like very Brute Force for a period of time and it was like push push push but now as we go back and we start to re-engineer and architect things in perhaps a more designed way we get better performance and there's a lot of work to do there still absolutely this is one of the great things about capitalism and a functioning Capital Market is you've got people working just on the context window for people who don't know what that is is that's the number of tokens a token is essentially a word you can think of it a piece of information the number of tokens you can put into a conversation with a large language model some people have really large context Windows some people have smaller ones but you can basically put an entire book in the context window and start asking questions against the model and the speed of those is critically important as well because if you put the book in there and it takes you 10 minutes to get an answer that's not functional right Gavin are you an investor in open AI oh I absolutely not yeah can you kind of theorize on what the buildout that's being done with Colossus does to the advantage that open AI has today how long till we kind of catch up there with xai and you know how much is going to be disrupted and how quickly here well if scaling l Hold the best information I have is the largest cluster Microsoft has after panicking is still smaller than XI cluster in if you didn't believe it it was possible you you weren't even working on it grock 3 should takes the lead if scaling laws hold in January or February I do think a lot of talent has left open AI I thought it was a really shocking statement from Mira moradi that she um resigned during a fund raise that's the only way she can express disapproval of what is going on there and still probably get her money right so I think I think there's there's a lot of reasons if scaling lost hold to be to to be optimistic about Croc 3 but I think um and and then by the way on the power question and and they are you know 20 23 and 24 it was just a panic to get gpus and get them plugged in now we're you know trying to make them efficient and thoughtful into your point re architecting them and the h20s now are 50% less power and either 50% more twice as much compute depending on the task they they have a little more compute and a lot more memory which really matters um so per kind of unitive effective compute they're a lot more power efficient they two or three times you think or no the h20s probably not probably not 2x but a good increment and the h100 was a great chip and then yeah yeah black well is just around the corner and that's an entirely new architecture with an entirely new set of networking technology what would consumers if we had to sort of speculate here what would consumers how would consumers experiences change in using forward-facing language models and then maybe what are developers going to see on the back end you know in terms of what they're going to be able to build if if this hands out you know in the next you know right now two years yeah right now you have like a friend in your pocket who has an IQ of 115 110 maybe but has all of the world's knowledge yeah accessible to it and that's what makes it amazing I think this will be like you have a friend in your pocket but and they sometimes make things up again they're very human and a lot of humans when they don't know the answer they dis symble yeah these AIS do it too so you will have a friend in your pocket with an IQ of what maybe 130 that knows everything has more upto-date knowledge of the world and is more grounded in factual accuracy and it is interesting for any question involving realtime information mostly Sports and finance you know I always you know if there's a stock down 25% ask every AI why is the stock down 25% generally grock is the one that knows um but yeah no Gro grock because of the Twitter data set exactly knows what is happening at the moment in the world today all right and then you know as we sort of wrap up here on the AI issue what about the ROI here that David was mentioning yeah so the I find these these debates also very funny you know there have been articles written about multi hundred billion dollar Roi questions those are very strange to me because yeah the biggest Spenders on gpus are public companies and they report Financial results every quarter and you can calculate a metric called return on invested Capital yes and roic Roi has gone vertical since they ramped their capex on gpus it actually just started to level out in this latest quarter so the ROI on AI has been very positive thus far just a fact it's a really good question will it continue particularly if you know it's going to cost a hundred billion dollars to train a model in two or three years um which I think is a realistic estimate um however gu the counter to that isn't the counter to that that maybe there's a little bit of hype that you know maybe there people are trying to determine the ROI and correlate it more precisely and I guess that's the challenge you know meta doing AI across its entire Enterprise you might see and Google you might see it directly making ads more effective as an example 100% yeah go Oni yeah but then for other folks like you know is it actually happening or is it a toy I guess is the criticism I hear I'm not saying that's my position but that's the criticism I hear is like are people actually getting money from the co-pilot or maybe this is just product Market fit Discovery process because the the AI laptops AI Intelligence on Apple and let's say some general llms people feel maybe aren't worth the money or co-pilot for Microsoft maybe not worth the money yeah I mean I personally have not had good experiences with co-pilot but I would say that and I'm sure both of you have come across these there are lots of companies that are just these thin rappers over a foundation model and they go from zero to 40 million instantaneously yeah and they're profitable and for their customers they're replacing labor budgets I think I'm sure you guys are noticing this too but startups today at a given size are employing fewer people than they would have three years ago and just like you know it's funny people were very SK I would say 50% less yeah and that's the ROI on AI and like in you know I went to the first AWS reinvent conference and no big companies were using cloud computing it was all startups startups always adopt Technologies first so outside of the ROI on AI that you're seeing in Google and meta from you know using this across their businesses you seeing real Roi on I from startups the same way they saw real Roi from cloud computing before anyone else it's crazy but I don't think these companies are in a classic prisoners dilemma they all believe to varying degrees that whoever gets there first to artificial super intelligence is going to create tens or hundreds of trillions of dollars of value and I think they may be right and I if they get there and they think that if they lose the race their company is at Mortal risk so as long as one person is spending I think they will all spend even if the ROI decelerates it is a classic prisoners dilemma competition is amazing it really is when you have a free market with competition we're sitting here two years ago three years ago on this pod Gavin just lenting like oh my God what could happen and China could just roll over us they've got everything dialed in we're a disaster and now here we are China's a disaster they've got all kinds of challenges and the free market is even with weapon systems we're seeing capitalism applied in competition applied there all right I think we should just wrap up on this uh Brian Thompson Story the CEO of United Healthcare was shot and killed in outside a Manhattan hotel on Wednesday morning United Healthcare is an insurance subsidiary of United Health Group and uh they employ over 140,000 people they provide coverage to millions and this was I don't know if you've seen them assuming you guys have seen the video on social media or go by on X it there's been a big debate was this like a really well-trained killer like an assassin like a Hired Gun was it something personal maybe and this person's a hack and they're not really good at doing a hit like this and most people are sort of coming somewhere in between ABC has reported and this is where this thing is taken like a crazy turn that the words deny defend and depose were discovered on the bullet casings at the scene and those are the terms two of the three are in a book about how health insurers uh reject many of the claims every year they deny it they defend it and then they will depose people to harass them essentially this is a crazy crazy story and it's breaking here I don't know if anybody has any insights on it but I thought I would bring it up here to just maybe intelligently speculate about what we've seen I mean it seems like the most likely case is someone's loved one died for they were denied coverage and what whether this person was hired or they're a victim or related to a victim I don't know if it matters I I think there's the observation I'll make is a question which is should CEOs be personally responsible for corporate actions generally speaking so there's a difference between a CEO committing fraud or being negligent but if you don't get a good service or good quality of service or the product you expect even if it is something you depend on for healthare for example let's say you take a drug and the drug causes a side effect that causes some permanent damage should the CEO be individually held accountable and if that were the case would anyone want to be a CEO of a company that sets out provide services that are critical like this it's a very like I think challenging question to think about because certainly you could feel like you want to hold someone responsible because a loved one died because that CEO's job was to make more money for their shareholders and therefore deny claims and therefore the way that they run that business is wrong I think ultimately we've got to kind of have this distinction between negligence fraud and acting on the corporate behalf there's a there's a for a period time all of these um documentaries and this movement against the idea of the corporation generally speaking you guys remember this was like a decade ago or 15 an capitalism movements yeah and it's like this the corporation Shields individuals and the corporation creates a shield for individuals to do harm is kind of the argument that's made and so there's a lot of people in this camp that think that these all CEOs of companies that let people down are evil should be killed should be put in jail whatever the awful kind of contextualization of that is and I do think like it's really important to think about well if no one were to be the CEO because they face that threat and those companies can't make money as a business then those Services go away entirely that's kind of the end state of where this goes there's going to be these difficult situations if a CEO does something negligent fraudulent wrong there's a court and there's a system and there should be kind of laws that protect people I I don't know man the whole thing is pretty depress pressing to think that a guy who's the CEO he's you know from from what I heard guy got a family yeah I mean he's got a family he's got a wife you people that have known him said he was like a nice guy and a good guy and he runs a tough business you know insurance is a very tough business well and to your point about this seems like it's very personalized with the casings if that is in fact true again this is breaking news so we're speculating here you hopefully informed this chart has been the one that's been circulating on social media now this has now become Gavin like a raw shock test about how you feel about Corporate America Healthcare Etc but United Healthcare at least according to these charts that are speculating deny claims at a rate at a multiple two or 3x other people in the industry and that they are the most hated not that any of this obviously results in somebody deserving to die I mean I can't believe I'm even saying this but tellor Len was went viral with a series of tweets not tweets I think she's on whatever the blue thing is sky blue blue sky where she uh wrote some quotes here and people wonder why we want these Executives dead Loren wrote on Blue Sky a microblog social media side alongside an article about how Blue Sky Blue Cross Blue Shield no longer cover anesthesia for the following surgeries uh that's according to the New York post Gavin your thoughts on this insanity and tragedy yeah well first of all it's a tragedy and actually I'm in New York as we record this and it happened one block from where I am and I mean it it is Absolut it's a human tragedy Taylor lorens was not the only person on social media who reacted that way which I thought was deeply troubling it was a large group of people who were writing very morbid comments there was a lot of anger around this issue that I was unaware of I was completely unaware of it well I think we all probably are very privileged to have great health care and able to pay our premium so we're not affected by this at this stage in our lives I was very affected by this 30 years yeah we're we're all very lucky on this podcast yeah and like I can't imagine how I would feel if you know someone I loved had been denied Medical Care and and died and I felt like it was unnecessary and you know due to you know some Corporation trying to make more money but I just I cannot believe I'm sure I'd be outraged I just can't believe I was deeply Disturbed as a person by the number of people online celebrating this it's really crazy yeah I thought it was it was awful and I guess the last thing I would just say about that chart is I think it is a little misleading I think that is initial denial H you know maybe the you know in other words maybe the company that you know only denies 7% That's a final Deni you know they yeah and who knows if the chart's even correct I bring it up only that it is the trending item and people are I find in these tragedies they become shock tests right like yeah United healthcare's Medical loss ratio is about 85% so 85 so 85 cents of every dollar they collect an insurance premium they're paying out in claims if you guys want to look at what the most egregious insurance industry in the world is it's title insurance and I'll give you the list of the rest travel insurance is pretty bad they pay out like nothing you were in Insurance business for a bit there yeah yeah like I mean you know health insurance is the hardest one of the hardest besides auto insurance businesses to be in uh you're paying out constantly and uh there is a very difficult kind of process of managing losses because the number of claims that comes in it's very easy to suddenly pay everything out and then your premium goes up and then people can't afford the health insurance so they you're striking this balance of making health insurance affordable against the cost of medical claims so it's a very kind of difficult business to be in I think it's very complicated to walk people through the how they in their individual circumstances aren't necessarily motivated by some corporate you know malic it's just the way the thing has toate unfortunately let me just say I I think that much like we saw with Hamas and the the attacks in Israel or uro there were people celebrating that behavior and we've seen that several times since and and and people have become very vocal about their celebration of what they view to be uh the death and harm done to those who view who they view to be oppressors in whatever context you want to kind of fit this to and put that oppressor label on an individual and that mindset seems to hold true through any social Financial economic political context there's an oppressor group and there's an oppressed group and if you're in the oppressor group you deserve harm you deserve death you deserve jail and this is another manifestation of that mindset playing out this is an individual with a family who ran a business who worked very hard for many years and wasn't trying to hurt people and uh for him to kind of be be have his life taken like and for people to say that person is an oppressor I think really speaks to How Deeply uh people's minds have been contorted by this concept that there's oppressors and oppressed it's almost like a mind virus and I'm not going to call it the W mind virus but uh because I just think you immediately shut down and won't hear that because it sounds cliche but there is this concept of like everyone is in one of two groups you're either being oppressed or you're an oppressor and if you're an oppressor there is no limit to what I should do or what should be done to you I think it's well said it's a very it's a very Stark it's a very Stark and sad kind of commentary on right what's going on right now sorry if you're oppressed the Cory to that is if you are considered oppressed you can do no wrong you can do no wrong and that is and obviously there are people who are oppressed on this planet but they can still do wrong they should still be held to a moral standard yeah there there and there is a moral standard and there is a standard and murder obviously an assassination like this is not uh acceptable and it's just tragic I just feel so terrible for this these kids let's end on a happy note so we'll see you on Saturday big party excited hard turn here but uh looking forward to seeing everybody on Saturday for the all-in holiday Zoom is sponsoring the um all-in Holiday Spectacular so if you want to go to allin.com you can go sign up there right Free Break yeah and then you can sign up for the zoom Gavin we expect you to sign up yes we have a cavar budget we have to replenish over here at s we do appreciate Zoom helping us out for the event Zoom AI companion helps set up the uh the live stream so thanks to zoom for doing that everywhere I have to say you know what one of the great exper I I I have a couple of experien with the AI that are really Great Notion has a phenomenal AI built into it and so does Zoom with the AI summaries I love getting these AI summaries of calls I ask people permission to turn it on and we get a summary in the bullet points really well done I went to I we did a hackathon in the office a couple of weeks ago and we used have you guys actually built applications with cursor you guys have not was it fun to build it it well it was great because we had so many people that have never built software applications in the hackathon and they built tools from scratch deployed them in production and are now using them and I think it really showcases the um kind of the impressive impact that AI is having on workplace productivity you don't need to buy saf tools you don't need to have service providers do stuff for you individuals in and by the way it's only getting better and you can the ability to just wake up in the morning and say I want this app and have it built for you it is and and by the way I'll just say it's it's like 70 80% there you still have to debug you still have to have someone come in and help kind of get things into production so there's still a little bit of work just pages right going back going back to the going back to the architecture question two months ago and and they go back to 60% there now it's 70 to 80 and and you fast forward 12 months and now you've got the architecture where the AI can run its own QA testing and debugging and the AI can run its own kind of Sal marketing and it's own ux of the application and it can run everything so you're basically going to say I want this app to do this it builds it it tests it it builds the ux it tests the ux it iterates the ux it does everything streamlined for you and then you show up a couple hours later and you're using a new product that was built on the Fly for you it is and and we're literally like climbing this ladder Gavin like very quickly that it's going to totally change this entire software industry is like getting re architected I could guess freeberg at his company hackathon what do you think I made I made a vegan version of Yelp only profiles all the vegan restaurants I actually I actually tried to make a CRM tool so that I wouldn't have to pay for CRM licenses I tried nine months ago to make a Benny off sorry go ahead Gavin I tried nine months ago to make a uh multiplayer um app for Skyrim um which I was very excited about Skyrim is a video game but I do think I failed um maybe I should give another go but the um you learned you didn't fail I learned I learned I didn't fail I learned yeah I have a growth mindset but the um we learned we learned the limits we we all T yes we tested the app but I think next year the human language will be the dominant programming language totally totally awesome it's totally yeah it's I you really made a great Insight earlier Gavin with you know startups is where you see these Innovations happen and I I always say internally re resource constraints really do Drive Innovation and when you only have a nickel you got to try to get a dollar out of it when you got a dollar and you got a lot of dollars you're like it's okay if I get a nickel out of a dollar I got more dollars laying right over here and Dylan always talked about this as well like they they asked him like why did Blood on the tracks like why did you do that it was incredible like it's this Rolling Stone interviewer was talking to Dylan about it he said this was like my favorite album and this is incredible whatever and like what was the inspiration take me behind it and he said well you know I owed Columbia Records and album and they had given me an advance and they were going to sue me and I had to give the money back and I had just gone through a divorce and I needed the money and I I couldn't do it so I wrote the album this guy was desperately was crushed that Dylan's one of his best albums and pieces of Art in his life was strictly a function of the pressure of is the mother of both there it is and creative invention absolutely all right everybody four thanks guys Gavin Baker Joel onale David freedberg and we miss you saaks uh uh taking an a a victory day I it's taking a victory day today and uh chth both out of the office today uh I am the world's greatest moderator and we'll see you next time on the Allin podcast byebye let your winners ride Rainman David and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love [Music] youen besties are this my dog taking your [Music] driveway oh man myit will meet me at we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release [Music] Som we need to get mer [Music] our going [Music]