The Stablecoin Future, Milei's Memecoin, DOGE for the DoD, Grok 3, Why Stripe Stays Private

all right everybody welcome back to the number one podcast in the world I am your host Jason calanis and with me again couple of my besties David fredberg you know him as our Sultan of science lots to get into today Sultan huh how you doing I'm keeping busy thank you keeping busy jamath and I on Valentine's Day we had a little Trio we were on MK Ultra podcast and it hit number four Allin podcast of course number one uh trat Reflections on our Megan Kelly our triumphant Megan Kelly Valentine's spectacular I was fine it was good okay wow thanks you're such a great performer here giving me so much to work with chamath as always but it was a great great pod shout out to our friend and friend of the Pod Megan Kelly and also we've got an incredible Duo for the first time we've invited a Duo to join us in The Red Throne David Sax's seat busy saving the country but we're really excited Coulson brothers are with us thank you for having us you guys want to hear a great lost porn story John has one for you the last time we met jamaath was 18 years ago when we were working on our prior startup automatic with Harge and and cool tagar you were how old they were 17 18 19 was one of these San Francisco setups where it was like a two-bedroom apartment there was a few of us living there I think maybe six people working out of there and a normal number exactly normal number is to load up a two bed apartment with and then jamath you came and and visited this is what's so brutal about this okay I could have invested a dollar one single dollar and I would have made a billion dollars I remember meeting these guys and I was with Alan Morgan who was my boss at the time I was a junior principal at Mayfield shout out and I think we tried to guys I don't know if you remember Patrick and John I think we tried to invest in in the business or it didn't happen or then you ended up shutting it down but right away you spun back up and started stripe and I just watched from the sidelines the whole way it is such a first of all it's an amazing it's an well no it's an amazing place for silen valley where you can like see these people just keep pushing the boundaries up and up and up number one number two the thing that is such a learning for me is like why didn't I just pick up the phone and call them at any point in the last 17 years what am I thinking so brutal let your winners [Music] ride and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with [Music] it it is oh my God so brutal two things one um first you probably don't remember this but I remember that meeting that you know we offered you you you want something to drink we did not have a broad selection I think we had water or or milk in the fridge and and you asked for a glass of water um and so I went over to the sink and I realized that we hadn't really been on top of the the washing up so I had to sort of gingerly wash a glass for you to get your glass of water which um can't remember if you touched it over the course of that meeting but then secondly like when we started out with stripe like the fintech sector basically didn't exist I mean the the the word hardly existed and didn't exist yeah yeah people just didn't think that I mean you know teenagers weren't actually teenagers at the time but you know people in the early 20s college kids taking on you know PayPal or the incumbents or regulated Financial Services or whatever you know people just didn't think it was a good idea so I don't know uh you you you you certainly were like the vast majority of investors we spoke with in the first year or two of stri turned us down so H you were you were not anomalous John tell us what that meeting was like and to just take you back to the moment here's a picture stop stop here's a picture no striking here's a picture of pre pre nine figure chath oh my God and this is when he shopped at Macy's does that maybe that jogs some memories John when that guy walked in with his khakis and that light pink Brooks brother shirt what did you think I don't know I think you can uh you can go back and find historical photos of anyone and use them to like if that's the worst historical photo you have that's pretty that's pretty lightweight stuff exactly Jason do you want to tell everyone in the audience what stripe is and I mean do we have to okay stripe processes payments this is a 10 plus year old startup that basically if you're a startup company and you want to do transactions you use stripe for example the all-in startup uses stripe to pay for the tickets and then we give these guys for some reason a half million dollars every year no discount they don't sponsor the event and uh they're making a fortune they got 10,000 employees and uh the company changed the world we've never been uh we've never been offered to sponsor the event I didn't know this was the this was an option but he hit us up for a half Millie last year I mean maybe this year you we can hit you up negotiate it live that's broadly accurate I would just fact check that it's nowadays not just startups even though they run on strip also the world's artist Enterprises Herz Amazon Ford all these kind of companies and so when we started out with stripe we thought it would only be for startups like we thought those were the people who needed a problem solved and we thought payments was broken for them and as time went on we just found out it was kind of broken for everyone and so sorry and is it public how much volume you guys do a year do you guys talk about that it's more than a trillion dollars a year a trillion dollars a year is process through your network yeah which works out to you Global GDP is around 100 trillion year so it works out to around 1% of global GDP and you could say well you know GDP is is final goods and and you know stripe processes more than only final goods so it's not if only you say that okay well look you could say it's not exactly the right or a fair comparison or something but but stripe mostly is used to sell final goods so I think it's I think it's reasonable and just the other thing I'd say is you know people I think reasonably think of stripe as a payments company because you know that is certainly what we started out doing and uh and it's uh certainly the largest line of our business but the thing we kind of realized a couple years in is that you know what business like the the the structural secular thing that's happening is that every kind of money movement is going from being manually orchestrated to being orchestrated by software and there's you know some program somewhere making the thing happen and so because of that like just because of what we hear from customers and the the pull there we're now you know helping with lending we're helping with card issuance we're helping with Treasury and money storage we're helping with crossborder money movement stable coins we got to talk about St coins got a stable yeah why' you do a stable coin stable coins are finally happening and they're really useful like we followed crypto for a long time the Bitcoin white paper dropped in 2008 the year before we started working on stripe and so it's been funny where stripe and crypto have grown up together and you know we tried to make Bitcoin happen as a payment method on stripe just wasn't that good as a payment method I mean it's good as a store of value as kind of a gold substitute but transactions are slow transactions are expensive you never know exactly how much you're going to get because it's not denominated in dollars the stable coins are now really good if you look at you know something on an ethereum L2 or salana or something like that and so we bought a company called bridge late last year who is building the stripe of stable coins and so if you're I mean I think you guys have talked about them a little bit but you know people like SpaceX using them for treasury management people using them to offer US dollar services to people all around the world just stable coins are I think the first really big payments use case and I think it's finally coming because the tech is good enough is there a moment guys where is it a regulatory event where you'll say the Visa Mastercard dapoli can get challenged is there a set of boundary conditions that you have written down where when you can check a few of these boxes you know that it's time for those companies to get dismantled the behavior we're seeing right now is that stable coins are most interesting and seeing most adoption where there is some crossb component and so uh you need to manage corporate treasury around the world you want to send remittances to people in other countries often it's people in other countries want to whole dollar balances or things like that what we've always seen is that I don't know in the US things work pretty well in Europe things work pretty well and so we even see this pre- crypto where the way people pay for stuff has been radically changing you know UPI in India picks in Brazil you have all these designed by central banks actually really good kind of government run venmo Solutions those have all happened in Emerging Markets broadly and not in the US and Europe we certainly keep our eyes peeled for that changing at some point but I think right now I don't know P would you characteriz it that way that like a lot of the interesting stuff we see is happening internationally yes so you know with respect to visa and Mass Master Card I think an important thing to keep in mind is that most of the interchange fees that are charged to Merchants and you know you mentioned what we charge the all-in podcast you know the vast majority of that flows right back to the uh to the issuing Banks uh in the form of interchange and almost all of that flows right back to the consumers in the form of you know the lending that the that the you know the cards themselves represent but then also in card rewards like card programs are not actually big profit pools uh for most of the major Banks and so I think any you know any substitute for for visa and MasterCard in that sense you know the sort of a question of well are the consumer rewards going to go down are the consumer protections going to go down will we be extending less consumer credit and maybe other points in that space are viable but you know it it is a set of trade-offs and it's not as simple as this this enormous rent extraction happening John's totally right I think the interesting use of stable coins is cross border is outside the US I mean the big use case that's taking off right now is consumers in other countries seeking to hold dollars you know we in the US here today you know we obviously benefit from being able to do that the vast majority of people in the world have kind of a are subject to a worse currency worse in the sense that it's less stable H it's more inflationary you know storing savings is is is much less favorable uh you know if you look at the nirra for example there are a lot of people in Nigeria and the the currency there has devalued by a factor of you know three or four over the last couple years and so that use case of consumers being able to store dollars is really exploding and we think about this really as kind of an analogy to the to the euro dollar system where you know the euro dollar system in the 70s and 80s this was a way for companies to store dollars and to you know have something more stable and and and reliable and so forth but it was only except I mean I think the minimum transaction size was like a million dollars so there's kind of a very high barrier to entry whereas with stable coins now you can be a consumer in Ecuador and you can have like A1 us balance and that was just not a product that was accessible to you before and so I think it's I think it's a really big deal you know certainly for people in those countries and in some sense also for the us because the dollar status as the world's Reserve currency I think is is is know process of becoming much more deeply established yeah that is the huge win for allowing stable coins and you know making them legal giving them rails putting aside tether and all the bans and fugazy stuff they've been doing or have done and all the lawsuits that they've lost and the bands in different countries having usdc having yours and other ones in the United States means we can regulate them and they have to buy treasuries and so okay dollar Supremacy continues and that's fantastic but right now Allin just using the example could accept payment in stable coin correct with stripe we just check a button we get stable coins yes okay so then the next piece I have we follow with you afterwards to make sure we I'm actually really excited that you guys are going to be sponsoring the all in Summit this year that's actually exciting super exciting no freeberg is great at securing the bag yeah the thing that's interesting though is if let's say we had a Millie sitting in our stripe account and then we had to pay a venue or pay other vendors and we're sitting there in uh yourk coins called bridge is that what it's going to be called or is called bridge is the is the company is the platform and you know that's like there there okay so they're not stra correct correct but you all have a stripe stable coin at some point yeah like one Bri actually has one already yeah Bridge has a a small stable coin for but we don't need to get into details but but bridge is primarily set of software apis got it but you'll obviously have a strip stable coin the point is if you turn on stable coin acceptance with um you know for for all in today that'll use usdc perfect now could we then go pay people from our stripe account and then you could lower our fees if they were also doing stable coins is that exist today or is that something coming next year look you could pay people in stable coins but again to the point of where you'll see adoption first paying people via bank transfer in the US like yeah it's not great it's kind of slow everything like that but it's fine it's not the biggest problem today yeah yeah exactly whereas the people who are using Bridge it's like scale AI is you know they have to pay the contractors all around the world and when you want to get money to people in the Philippines that starts to get really annoying and expensive and so just from our point of view the like real hair on fire problem is the international stuff and domestic I assume you're paying domestic suppliers it'll come later I think you're I think I think you're answering narrowly to you know stable coins I think everything you just said is is right but I will say I think Jason your intuition that man it's really inefficient and annoying to you know engage in B2B transactions and to get these invoices paid and like the whole system and if you look at most companies they're losing 1 two 3% of Revenue to AP and AR now some of that might be because of the transaction rails themselves a lot of just because of you know baroke inefficient processes uh where you have humans sending invoices humans reconciling them you're trying to line up transfers in your bank account statement and figure out you know what corresponds to what and so on and that's super inefficient and so we're separately I mean Cil con would be part of the solution here but but but there's more to it separately we're trying to solve that with a product called stripe billing which we actually just announced last week has passed you half a billion in uh in ARR and so uh we we could send an invoice to somebody which right ex so it's like fresh books or whatever those other products in the market are all amazing all the back office is there a version of a network effect inside of stripe for their customers where if I just allowed you guys to just be integrated into my GL somehow and you gave me some kind of phantom bank account why isn't it just a ledger entry if I'm just making a payment from me to somebody else that's also on strip the thing we really want to solve is all the calculation the ID verification the risk like those are the things that are actually expensive um uh if you if you look at this flow uh it's where companies lose their money today having said that you're right um you know we're the fraction of money movement on stripe where you know the two counterparties are both part of the stripe network is obviously growing and so I think that'll be another way we can reduce fees over time although again I actually think the biggest part of that is is going to be because we reduce fraud like both counterparties are known and like I talked to a company a payroll company recently and they were describing you know how big a deal it is for them that you know people sign up you know frauding companies whatever and you know they can lose millions of dollars in a single attack and so having some kind of trusted node rather than just like routing an account number that would be a really big deal for them look you have a very good pulse and what I would say is that as a subset of the economy you probably reflect a large part of the global economy have you ever been approached or have you ever considered on a regular basis publishing some sort of economic sentiment one of the big things that we've talked about is how many backward revisions there are to everything from non-farm payrolls to GDP that they've become so unreliable and so it's very difficult for people that are transacting in Market to know what to do have you guys ever thought about that because I'm sure that you have a much more accurate sense of where the economy is than many other people we have and I feel a bit ruthful you know with you're asking that question because I feel like on some level we should have done it um the thing that makes it kind of tricky is because two two things one stripe is not like a full CR section of the economy you know we're more biased towards online we're more biased towards Innovative companies you know whatever that that you know it's kind of net that out somehow and you know there can be these stories where I mean during Co like the online economy was doing great H the offline economy was sort of a different story so the interpretation can be a bit tricky but then just the second thing is the stripe business is growing so quickly and changing so fast that again you know it's not necessarily representative of of the EC economy and even if stripe is way up year overy year you know you you have to be a bit hesitant in drawing conclusions from that having said that I think in principle you could draw you know some conclusions and you know one thing we we we did look at uh was just inflationary data over the last couple years and I think you can construct and the team did construct a pretty reliable kind of leading indicator huh for inflation and so we would like to share that openly because you know I think it's I think it's a public good forther to be better and more reliable economic data all right freeberg before we get into the doc you got any question for the boy here if you were to kind of build the financial system from scratch today we've got Swift we've got banks that store assets we have credit cards and these credit card networks then we've got transaction service providers that sit on top of this what's the right solution if we were to build a financial system for the world from scratch today and can you guys see a world where we Bridge away from the credit card networks where we move out of some of these Legacy systems or they so deeply ingrained and everything that it's it's going to continue to be this thing where we've got to build these complicated Solutions into an around the legacy of financial infrastructure I'll give my view and then I'm curious about um Patrick has I would say firstly there is just general Tech scalability you know there's the um you know the finance industry has its version of the M shafts for sure where uh everything should be uh you know highly scalable in real time and I think in a way stable coins are solving something that you would you don't technically need full decentralization to do but the ability to make kind of realtime payments any hour of the day or night is a useful property and again some private systems have uh also built that I think a big one for us is trust and the fact that the fraud problem hasn't really been solved in online payments a big reason people come to stripe is basically we are a reputation Network across the internet economy and so when someone comes and buys something from a stripe user 93% of the time we have seen that card before and so the merchant can know something and know that they can trust this end user and it's gotten to the stage now where if someone comes along and buys with a credit card if they're you know signing up with an email address or a phone number or something that we haven't seen before that is just ipsofacto suspicious because you know they are coming along and maybe trying to a stolen credit card or or or or something like that and so a big part of what stripe ends up doing is act as a reputation Network to keep fraud out of the system that maybe you would have wanted to design in from from day one well In fairness jth told me I could use that credit card anytime I wanted I don't think he remembered but I think you need to turn my account back on and freeberg I just got news from our CEO John MasterCard just canceled their sponsorship of all in Summit so this is costing us a fortune this podcast so far two things one to your point about just all these different networks and so forth I think stable coins are going to be a big part of a big part of the solution actually don't think that's going to supplant all the consumer facing networks I think we're going to see consumer facing networks built upon and that you know substantially leverage these things but I think stable coins will probably be the common Rail and then just secondly I think part of what you're hearing is most businesses lose more money to fraud than they do to the kind of pure transaction cost themselves and you know you're hearing us talk a lot about fraud here uh and that's because one it's just it's it's a huge economic cost for these businesses today and there's even indirect costs where you make the consumer experience more hostile because you have to protect against uh you know possible fraud like you know why why do you have to type in all lock out my bank account yeah all this stuff exactly but then secondly I think these we can just see in the data these problems are actually getting worse and harder because you know ml AI globalization yeah exactly and so like you know various fraud metrics across the industry and the ecosystem are way up over the last couple years now and striped actually down by 80% but it's it's really becoming a cute issue all right and we'll get into uh staying private longer and when you guys are going to pull the IPO trigger later in the show but we got to get through this docket we got so many great topics to talk about let's get to our first story here it's a kind of a fun one Jamie Diamond went on a rant about remote work and and zoom uh in a town hall and uh here's a snippet a lot of you were on the zoom and you were doing the following okay you know looking at your mail sending text to each other when ask the other person is okay not paying attention not reading your stuff you know and if you don't think that slows down efficiency creativity creates rudeness and stuff it does okay and when I found out that people are doing that you don't do at my goddamn meetings you go to meeting with me you got my attention you got my focus I don't bring my goddamn phone I'm not sending text to people okay it simply doesn't work the Young Generation is being damaged by this that may they may or may not be on your particular staff but they are being left behind they're being left behind socially ideas meeting people in fact my guess is most you live in communities a hell of a lot less diverse than this that's not how you run a great company we didn't build this great company by doing that by doing the same semi disease that everybody else does colon Brothers tell us about how you run stripe are you remote does this resonate with you four years after uh we've come out of the pandemic I love listening to Jamie Diamond rants like I feel like that's business ASMR um business ASMR that itself s to be a great podcast I was about to say I'm subscribing that's an instant $10 a month subscription what do you think yeah I don't know people just said a lot of sh during the pandemic like do you remember it's like oh handshakes are going to be over business travel is going to be over every company is going to be fully remote I would say stripe broadly is in a pretty similar spot to where it was beforehand which is most people go into an office like most people are you know uh part of our San Francisco office or New York or Dublin or or Singapore wherever and then we have a bunch of people also who work remotely I think kind of obviously you know Jimmy is right on some points I think also working remotely has had a bunch of benefits where there's a way larger talent pool available to companies like stripe and there's a lot of people you know you see uh kind of the two body problem where it allows a lot of couples where you know maybe one partner is assigned to some Hospital in Idaho and like they don't get to choose what hospital necessarily they got assigned to and the other person gets to work a a high paying Tech job and so I don't know I think when like like one of the theories for declining dynamic in the US in declining tfp is that allocative efficiency uh of of you know people declined as women enter the workforce because now you have you know what John describes this two body problem where you know both people have to make coordinated switches and uh remote work Sol it actually yeah freeberg you're running a company now you're the CEO of ohalo tell us uh does this resonate with you what do you think especially about younger people his point and like being rude or being focused being in the media and then like maybe there's too many meetings where people are partially paying attention maybe there should be half as many meetings and people should be paying attention what do you think well there's always room for optimization there we we deal with this too too many meetings too many people I think what was most striking for me about the Jamie Diamond rant and the resonance it seems to be having particularly in Silicon Valley and particularly with folks that are in leadership positions or on boards is that this is another example of what I think is kind of a different tenor for leaders in business right right now relative to where we were a few years ago leaders are starting to step up and speak their mind and speak more directly and lead from the front rather than lead from the back I think the last couple of years and I would say that the whole kind of transition a away from wokeism and coddled employee workforces which is something that a lot of folks talk about I'm I'm not trying to just characterize it I'm just saying that's the characterization that's been placed on it is that the employees made the decisions and then the leaders kind of said okay I'm Ed to the employees whims and needs and look at what's gone on with Zuck he said you're with me you're against me here's a buyout option Elon obviously was an Exemplar of this at Twitter uh We've now seen this become coinbase Brian and his letter and we've now seen this become I think a bit more of a standard in the kind of emergence in the postco era that leaders can lead from the front speak directly and say this is the way things are going to be my job is not to coddle my employees my job is to lead my employees so that our organiz our team wins and we achieve our mission that's the objective it's not to create a family workplace for everyone to be happy all the time it's to help the organization succeed and so I think I have heard from people individually I've seen this tenor shift underway right now um and I think that Jamie Diamond is another kind of Exemplar of this that that seems to have some resonance all right shth I want you to respond specifically to this next clip let's play the second clip about organizational bloat every area should be looking to be % more efficient if I was ready to depart with 100 people I guarantee you if I wanted to I could run it with 90 and be more efficient I guarantee you I could do it just I could do it in my sleep and the notion these bureaucracies I need more people I can't get it done no because you're you're feeling that request that don't need to be done your people going to meetings they don't need to go to someone told me to approve some his wealth management that they had to go to 14 committees I am dying to get the name of the 14 committees and I feel like firing 14 chairman of committees I can't stand it anymore all right shth the bloated bureaucracy at big companies your thoughts well you know there's that adage that says something akin to 50% of advertising is useless we just don't know which 50% yeah I think it's probably true for most corporate structures in general which is that a lot of the organizational bloat has evolved because of the way that people have responded to how you use technology so meaning if you went looked back 50 years ago if you look at that famous picture of the Microsoft early team they didn't rely on software necessarily there wasn't Salesforce there wasn't workday there wasn't all of this infrastructure and so instead they probably organized by what they were good at and they just tried to do things efficiently and I suspect that many companies in the absence of Technology found a way to just be very efficient that started to change when you had these rigid demarcations of where one job ended and another job started and part of why that happened is because you had all this software that went in and convinc people this will create efficiency but in return the chief marketing officer's job is X Y and Z this is how the roles are defined this is how people do it and so I think that the reason why things have become so bureaucratic and Bloated is that there is just this propensity to run towards software because you think it's a solution at best it's a symptomatic Aid it doesn't address the root cause and in fact it promotes bureaucracy and it promotes the bloat that Jam's talking about and if you look at Jim's p&l he spend $6 billion dollar a year on it and I suspect that if you screamline that you'd actually have half as many people because they'd be doing the job in a wholly different way and by the way the the counterfactual to it is if you look at companies like Facebook or Google or Tesla or SpaceX who design and I'm sure stripe is the same who designs a lot of stuff internally that's custom built for their or I think the way that you see this in the revenue per employee and a bunch of these other metrics in terms of the efficiency of those companies so I think what he is talking about is that he is a victim of this push to productivity because he would look like a lite if he didn't adopt technology but by adopting the off-the-shelf stuff he introduces organizational blo because these things are demarked very very rly you got the marketing team as you mentioned using HubSpot and then you got like the sales team using I don't know organizational bloat the other thing I just want to say on the first topic is I've mentioned this before other than Engineers who are who are naive but can be extremely productive from day one there are very few other job types where naivity is an asset most people early in their career are in a jcurve where they are negatively contributing and the go everybody down and the whole goal is that you invest in these people so that they come out of the J curve there are probably other jobs that are like engineering but many many are not and so I think it's important to get the kind of mentoring you get by being in an office and in the absence of that I think these young people like Jamie said are totally lost that's that's on them but then for the company they're completely unproductive and useless which is on us hey John uh Toby I I don't know if you know Toby from Shopify but he did this like zero based budgeting kind of concept for meetings he just purged all meetings at the beginning of the year he just like deleted everybody's meetings from the top down I'm curious how you think about bloat and just all of these meetings and committees do you worry about that at strip we know Toby very well and I don't know I always feel like yeah we should I'm tempted to uh take some of the ideas like we haven't done the meeting deletion one and you just say oh the meetings get recreated but they measured it and they didn't it sounds like uh and I do always enjoy Toby's perspective which I think that you know many organizational problems are in fact software problems and you know you just need to write a script to literally like I think he wrote the script to all the meetings uh you know from the Google Calendar instance but uh there's kind of this Purity that uh uh you're you're over intellectualizing your problems and I do agree with jamat on the remote thing where like it's it's very dangerous I one thing that can be dangerous with as CEOs think about this stuff is I think there is these unfair anecdotes that feel unfair that get people really riled up the quiet quitters the anti-work subreddit you know all these talk of people working two jobs and that generates a lot of energy with corporate leaders but you don't want to design your policies around like the bottom 5% of the company that would be a horrible mistake yeah you want to design your policies against the top town and we have some like outrageously productive remote people and they're off and again the cabin Idaho somewhere just you know Co coding up a storm the thing that we have seen and interestingly we measured this before covid cuz we were doing a lot of remote hiring and we wanted to see we wanted to see how much we should lean into it is that it is not good for early career people we could actually measure it in our productivity Data before the whole discussion about remote work happened during covid and it's bad from a work point of view it's also just bad from a personal point of view where they go mad because they're 23 years old and they're not Sol conf exactly literally solitary confinement it's ridiculous and by the way breaking news here Jamie Diamond now now uh knows which 2,000 or I'm sorry 1,739 employees to lay off first there is a coworker.org petition to get Jaimie to retract his statement so the optin has been created if I know Jamie I know he'll be uh retracting that statement right away absolutely he will bend to the pressure of those 1700 mids Patrick how do you deal with mids at stripe how do you deal with the mids the people who I'm not saying you have any but maybe you've run into because you got over 10,000 employees when somebody's average that must make you crazy how do you deal with it no the median employee at stripe is awesome the median employee Atri employee at stripe is is not the median person in the population at large although I think the median person in the country is we um you know we employ well no I was using the term mids mids are people who are just average people not the above average strip people who opt into that but how do you deal with low performance is kind of what I'm getting at well look you need to have an aggressive Performance Management culture and to stay on top of that and look at it's not it's it's not good for anyone to keep those people around because nobody likes feeling that they aren't succeeding and so if those people are you know their careers aren't advancing they're not getting you know positive feedback from their manager from their peers they aren't shipping things like whatever this is just like not a good equilibrium for anyone so we really try to you know stay on top of that we track it closely the thing just on this discussion broadly to say is I think people very readily fall into a kind of normative moralizing perspective on this stuff of people should be in the office they shouldn't be in the office but like there's a lot of should here I think it's helpful to just one kind of as John referenced with you know some of the analysis just you know be quite empirical and objective and just like look at what the data says and and then second just recognize there's a lot of heterogeneity as in people have different preferences people have different abilities to work effectively you know when they're by themselves and you know some don't organizations are doing different kinds of work Nvidia you know last I checked is doing pretty damn well and you know Jensen is on the record of saying he know doesn't give a  about where you work coinbase Shopify you know they're all these you know remote first companies and then you know I was recently ched the folks at Jane Street and they really believe that you know being collocated and be able to share ideas on the trading floor and so forth is is really important but I don't think these pictures are NE or these worldviews are necessarily contradictory they probably hire different kinds of people or in different kinds of businesses and so on and so I don't know I guess I'm just skeptical of flat shoulds in this space and many to yeah many paths to Heaven uh all right so let's move on to our next story last we just keep in mind and labor productivity in the US is up like 20% in the last 10 years and so just like again you just you just look at the data just the median person in the economy or the average person is H is producing 20% on an inflation adjusted basis more than they were 10 years ago yeah that's going to keep wrapping up with AI and all these amazing tools that are coming out we'll leave that on the side for now because that would be an hourlong rabbit hole we could jump down but we got to get back into Doge the number well I've heard a couple criticisms of Doge one of them is it's one-sided we're only hearing about you know people on the left doing griffs and US Aid the other one is hey you're you're pointing at little tiny things like USA when are you going to get to defense spending and Social Security well here we are Washington Post is reporting that in between doing sets of 47 push-ups defense secretary Pete hegf asked senior leadership at the Pentagon to develop a plan to cut 8% from the defense budget each of the next five years that's compounding 8% here's a chart we're talking about close to 300 billion in savings over 5 years if uh they hit which isn't a crazy Target 8% a year it's just crazy in our country where we haven't even been able to have our defense department pass a basic audit if you've seen those type of reports let's pause there and just talk about military spending chth I think that military spending needs to sit Downstream from technology because if you if it doesn't you're sort of misappropriating the money and what I mean is that we're inventing incredible capabilities in Ai and autonomy I think that you need to take those things first and figure out how to productize them because I think that builds the kind of modern war machine we need otherwise what happens I tweeted about this Nick maybe you can find it but like the CBO red flagged a project where the Navy was about to appropriate $1.2 trillion to build frigs now there's a body I think of of military planning that says this is a projection of power and so you need to spend this kind of money because people want to see the big boats and the Big Iron in the water okay and and maybe there's something about that but the reality is you can't be spending three or four billion dollars a boat and taking you know eight nine 10 years to build these things it's so this is not sustainable and part of why they do that is it's not coupled to what's actually happening with respect to Innovation where there are core pockets of companies Sanic just announced a $600 million raise today sa drone announced hundreds of millions of dollars of contracts with the Navy andril is doing that with the army so I think that military spending needs to happen Downstream from what's actually happening in technology broadly speaking we don't have that what you have instead are system integrators with extremely deep connectivity that are able to contract well not necessarily to invent well freeberg any thoughts there on cutting defense spending obviously we have uh to chat's point amazing Founders like my guy pommer lucky cutting the cost of very important uh AR he hates that's my guy my bestie oh no we it's all a joke everybody calm down we just have a little hates you Jason heally listen I know all the board m Rel to your Ranch he loves J he loves it everybody needs a foil uh it's all sorts of problems for the rest of us when you go out and talk about people for no reason it's great what are you talking about I never talk about stripe guys you don't have any beef with employees mids for no reason for no reason you're just like oh what about your mid was a hypothetical yeah okay I did say that you you guys pocketed 500 large look we we can come to the summit and you know Palmer Style just like long list of things I've said about yes absolutely shout out to my guy Palmer lucky but what do you think freeberg for serious let's get back on track here okay so here's what I here's what I think if you take defense down to First principles there was an excellent tweet that we were all texting about yesterday it made the observation that Trump's negotiations with Russia and China where there's all of this Heming and hawing about those negotiations being complying with the wants and needs of dictators may actually be a shift in strategy on the global relationship the United States has with other Global powers in particular a shift from the objective being about us Primacy and the us being kind of the sole great power on Earth to recognizing that that's no longer the case and that in a multi-polar world we no longer need to invest in Wars need to invest in conflicts need to invest in defense with supposed allies to try and build up our strength across the globe and I'm not saying that this is necessarily the right strategy but it was an observation that maybe the Strategic imperative is now to have kind of a a multi-polar stance in the world rather than a stance of Primacy and in that framing you then ask the question okay at make that the case now if we do agree that we are all going to settle into a new world where China Russia the United States are not necessarily equal Powers but shared Powers across the globe in that context do we need to have as much of an investment in global defense do we need to continue to pour dollars into building up arsenals and military bases and troops and stations and positions All Around the World perhaps not perhaps the world gets divided peacefully and we open up global trade relationships and everyone benefits economically from the advances in technology and improvements in productivity and the world order is peaceful but multi-polar maybe that's the new era that we're entering and in that context you need as much of a defense and separately to chamat point there's different technology that's now in play we've seen it in the Ukraine Russia context that a $10,000 drone can destroy A10 million piece of equipment and China now has drone factories that can output millions of drones each month so if China develops this new type of Arsenal with millions of autonomous flying systems that can go and attack troops and attack expensive pieces of equipment do we really need aircraft carriers do we really need tanks and I think that's the whole hegf Le um Trump Le conversation that's underway in defense right now number one multi-polar number two therefore we don't need as much defense spending number three maybe the defense spending that we do do should account for the new technology on in play in the battlefield and that really changes the character of how the defense department is structured and how funding is structured so that's really I think the way to look at it versus hey let's just cut defense spending for cutting sake um and that might be what's going on right now a holistic view of it Patrick any thoughts on uh what we're seeing in fense Tech and uh saving money through Doge well obviously what um what you know Andel and others are doing is is pretty amazing um but you know we're we're obviously not defense experts uh but sort of just bring the credit card merchant uh perspective uh to Bear here uh you know we naturally just go and look at the the time series um and the sort of the data around it and I guess I'm struck by again maybe I'm getting some of the details wrong here I'm this is outside of our Zone but as far as I can tell the cuts proposed over the next couple years of the for the defense department are of approximately the same magnitude as the reduction in the defense budget that occurred between 2010 and today and so it's not like this is some unprecedented transformation in DOD budget uh we we we've done this and then secondly you know as far as I can tell one of the most ecumenical uniformly shared bipartisan issues in Washington is the in efficiency and the pricacy of Defense procurement you jimes Fallows writing a book about this in the late 80s you had you know Augustine's laws and their whole book about this just everyone seems to you know uh fervently believe um that defense procurement is monstrously inefficient now you know it's possible to make budgetary changes without fixing that but obviously the prospect of meaningful Improvement there uh seems uh seems like it would be you know really beneficial and if I can just give a quick book recommendation this book Boyd by Robert korm about John Boyd the Air Force Colonel who you know was part of the reformist uh movement I feel like everyone in Silicon Valley has that book on their shelf and no one's actually read it but it is a exactly it it is kind of referencing sprinkling some UDA Loops into your remarks uh always helps exactly yeah yeah yeah um sounds smart but uh that is a great book and it's a book about Air Force procurement essentially where he had his you know basically the story is that the Air Force generals of the time wanted planes that were bad and he had a theory about better fighter jets uh and he had his fingerprints all over the F16 and the A10 and the F-15 and uh various aircraft and it was a real battle to get the Air Force to produce better aircraft and they really you know the generals really wanted these bad aircraft that they had planned and so that's a fun read at this moment in time when it feels like we have this similar transition from man to name of the book again I know there's many books about it's called Boyd by Robert corm and it's a it's a really engaging read it's also just very well written it's this kind of narrative non-fiction style yeah this there it is okay everybody another book selection from the all-in book club brought to you by stripe use the code Allin to get a year free of got the stripe press books absolutely oh you do actually have a series of cool books yeah we'll uh we'll plug those towards the end uh all right shath you added a crypto update crypto corner is back we had an exciting week of innovation in the crypto space last week Argentine president mle who is a hero to a lot of people in uh on the right or for government efficiency promoted a meme coin it was called Libra dollar sign Libra and uh he originally tweeted this private project will be dedicated to encouraging the growth of the Argentine economy uh with a link to Libra for his citizens to go buy it and buy it they did but he deleted that tweet when this whole thing came apart and said I was not aware of the details of the project and after having become aware of it I decided to not continue spreading it the market cap ripped 4 billion it crashed 95% as these meme coins always do 74,000 Traders lost almost 300 million 24 wallets had losses over a million and mle has been sued 100 plus times already and this just happened last week he's being investigated by his own government now and uh there is an impeachment uh attempt underway by the opposition mle's team told CNN that his endorsement of the coin was a mistake really oh wow going on a limb there according to insiders Malay never actually owned any Libra and was not associated with the coin I think family members maybe put him up to it the details of why he promoted it remain a little bit unclear there's a lot of speculation jamat your thoughts it's kind of crazy I mean he was on such a positive upswing of momentum it doesn't make much sense why he got embroiled in all of this the the problem with this though is I think that the cover up is always worse than the crime itself so the first message was you know very Clinton esque like I did not have sexual relations with that woman he was like I did not endorse it I just shared it was his justification for how he how he um could rationalize what he did the kid that's behind this thing Hayden Davis I think is his name he was on coffeezilla was an incredible one hour did you see that the coffee Zilla intervie well I saw I saw some of the clips on X and it was pretty Brazen because he he essentially said that he had Javier Malay in his pocket and then there were text messages that use some pretty colorful language to basically say the same thing then on top of that there were some text messages that seemed to implicate malle's sister as having got some of the money from all of this I don't know the whole thing just makes absolutely no sense that he was doing so much good and now he's goingon to go through this whole cycle of trying to wash his hands of this whole thing it's a complete waste of time and effort I don't know why he did this and there was another like interesting little tidbit uh fredberg uh friend of the Pod David pornoy supposedly he's been getting in on this and he's a gambler and he loves gambling and he looks at as gambling obviously he had put reportedly millions of dollars into this and this guy we're talking about gave him his money back this guy also has something like a hundred million sitting in a bank account anywhere what's your take on all these meme coins Freer I don't like them I don't think that they're okay like good I don't think they're productive all right I think that a bunch of people are going to put money in and lose money and a few people are going to make a lot of money and you know but at the end of the day it's no different than the people that sell trading cards or the people that create and sell Collectibles and get paid for them and this is just effectively a digital Collectibles business unfortunately I think it's like Amplified by like a thousand X because Collectibles businesses have friction and they're manual and you got to ship them and this creates um a bit more of a digital frenzy where you see the social feedback loop happen really quickly in real time and that drives these things to a high value which means people have the ability to lose a lot more than the otherwise qu but look I mean these are not helping the financial system get rebuilt as we talked about earlier they're not uh creating productive value they entertainment mechanisms just like any other kind of gambling system might be and you know people can choose to do that if they want but personally I'm not into it I just think it's stupid but whatever Patrick their own yeah do you think these are like Collectibles or do you think they are perceived by the people buying them more like Securities and more like Bitcoin they do uh to steal me on the other side of the argument uh they do trade with a ticker symbol they are traded uh on major platforms like coinbase and Robin Hood and people share charts about them and so where do you stand on it you're in the finance business mem coin's good mcoins bad I'm basically with Dave I mean I well they seem to me to be maybe analogous to to gambling um which you know I don't know that we want to ban gambling uh like if you're able to do it responsibly and you understand what you're getting into and so forth like I guess that's fine but as you say judging by the tweets that I see there are a lot of ticker symbols and charts and prognostications about future price trajectories and so forth that lead me to think that people are placing somewhat more weight on the asset and security value of these uh as compared to the I don't know some numinous intrinsic aesthetic value so John maybe two things could be true here people are gambling and they are being presented as financial instruments and they're trying to trick the suckers at the table the suckers in this case being the people who voted for Malay to chat's point this is the unbelievable self home of the of the decade yeah look I don't like meme coins I think they're bad and I think they're part of like Patrick said a broader swaye of things that we need to figure out Society where the legalization of sports betting and combined with highly targeted advertising I don't know if you guys have seen the stats on you know whales in sports betting losing very large amounts of money and it's just these heartbreaking tales and there's a very large number of them of people kind of losing much more than they expected and I don't know we have to to reckon with these societal questions I don't think the super easy answers they come along from time to time learned recently that um state lotteries are a relatively recent phenomenon like I think it was one state started doing it in the 1970s and then a bunch of the other states followed suit but it's kind of odd when you step back that like I pass a billboard on 101 for you know the state of California trying to you know get me to buy Lottery a negative e EV bet yeah just like but but that's become very normalized and so I think it's a bucket of hard questions here around you know beam coins Sports gambling whatever I don't know what you do but there's a lot of meme coins are not the only place you find these very heartbreaking stories this is the this is the first time where they've actually talked about at least where I saw the details of how this stuff happens because he laid it out and there's these people called snipers that go and like pump up the bids right as soon as the coin gets launched and then they're able to Fe so there's like this entire mechanism Soo shady I was gonna say some there where I I feel like the specific thing within beam coins probably most pernicious is like the rugging dynamic and if you could have meme coin girl but without the without the pump and rug if it was like I don't know just some mimetic tracker of some sentiment or something like maybe that' be okay but the the the like the particular way in which they seem to be you know employed is like yeah some some sort of discontinuous run up and then well the rug what do you think J I agree with you chath uh Malle had the greatest PR run of all time I think I mean he became an inspiration to all of us here in America who were concerned about the deficit and outof control spending and ridiculous departments we heard Jamie Diamond talking about ridiculous committees and all this nonsense I don't know if you guys remember but remember he was like minister of culture AA and minister of genda AA this was the precursor to of course Doge where now we're like USA deleted Department of Education deleted you know defense department Min - 8% and you know what I really find terrible about this is that what it means for leadership what mle did was he rug pulled the people who put him in office the people who voted for Malay are the ones who got hurt here and when you think about leadership at its core it really is about putting the needs of your constituents ahead of your own interest the needs of your investors in the case of you know if you were running Stripe Right you got to think about all these shareholders leadership you know at its core is I think setting the example right you set the St the standard the moral the ethical The Vibes the culture you set that standard he had set such a great standard that we all loved and you know the appearance of impropriety is impropriety in my mind that's the leadership standard that should be here so even being near this your sister launching it your brother launching whatever it is he then went on to taunt this is where I really you know like people make mistakes but and this is a stupid one to make but the taunting of his own followers you know I'm out on Malay right now this is what he said the reality is if you go to the casino and lose money I mean what is the claim if you knew that it had these characteristics this is another failure of leadership leaders own their mistakes they don't attack the victims you take ownership of it and the way you should judge people I think is what they do when they're given a lot of power and what they do when they make mistakes mle is a failure on all of those those fronts it's absolutely abhorent that's it thanks for coming to my TED Talk No I'm just I'm on fire about it I just think it's like really terrible do you need help getting off your moral grandstand now I do actually yeah I'm over I'm sorry I actually care about morals ethics and Leadership I think that there's a standard set by these people that's what I that's what I think about when I think about you yes of course thank you uh all right with friends like these cson brothers can you imagine imag please say okay I'm so annoyed can you please say their name pronounce the goddamn eye I'm pronouncing the Irish okay we we speed things up a little bit we we put them together it's a little bit different you wouldn't know this from being from Sri Lanka a great country you guys wouldn't know why anyone watches this show would you yeah I don't knowbody says no context for this why you make every show a train wreck and we have to get it out of the the banter is why why people come people listen you know so many TV shows are about it's nice to have friends I mean you look at friends or How I Met Your Mother my wife and I are rewatching The West Wing right now and it's basically a show about you know yeah but it's just like all buddies and loyal to each other and everything and I think the underlying idea behind lots of TV shows is it's nice to have friends and I think that's the the success the all in sng by the way is an Inc is an incred which season are you on it's an incredible show we're up to season four now God I gotta get five or seven never got in on the west of course sorin left after season 4 and so many people said of the whole thing about the great debate that America needs to have I think is still like the missing aspect of modern politics is the great debate yeah well the great debate is like let's talk about the topic that's at hand and talk about it on the merits of what's right for the country as opposed to everything being about attacking because the other side brought the idea forward and now we have to attack the other side and frame the idea as being beneficial to them and hurtful to us nothing actually gets resolved because we don't end up having objectivity around these conversations around some of the major issues that the country faces many of which by the way both sides have valid points of view and if we can kind of have the great debate if we can have these conversations like Doge right like abortion like you know the rights of States like spending like there are all these things that we should be talking about rather than use that moment as a way to attack the other side politically so I can make sure I've got points and Kudos leading into the next election cycle it's just awful anyway I missed that about the West wi it feels like a purest like just a beautiful like way of thinking about I wonder what it would be like to watch the westwing and then House of Cards back to back that's something I should no but it's like really a ju to position those two different shows yeah but they've isn't The West Wing kind of the opposite of what you just said you want the all in to represent because I see I see the westwing as being sort of fully immersed in and representing you know one sort of particular worldview there was you know there was inms since we look back on the 990s at the Clinton years or something as you know this period of great Harmony in the country and you know that Harmony might have been great and the economy was doing well and you know all the things um but it wasn't exactly a period i whatever I wasn't here in the 90s but you know from afar it did not feel to me when I was eight or whatever as a period of tremendous ideological uh debate and fervor and schisms and all the rest during the 90s during the Clinton era you're think yeah yeah and I think I mean maybe I'm wrong but I think of the west wing as you know a kind of recapitulation maybe they were I mean maybe they were the compromising party because I mean tell me another modern Democrat president that's had any point of view on balancing the budget and creating a surplus which was aligned with the Reagan point of view at the time and he kind of you know again as Jal says he was a Centrist and he brought brought the the parties closer together rather than further apart with how they I agree with Patrick the thing that makes the westwing a great show is that it's about The Insider nature of the White House and the West Wing where you see these characters like Toby who would never be a star in any other show under any other circumstance on any network ever and instead he's one of these Central quasi good quasi nefarious bully kind of you know he was like a the precursor to the Rah Emanuel archetype in the Obama White House I think I also find it funny where you know the way uh Dominic Cummings has talked about just his experience of life in government was that it's so distracting trying to get anything done because you know you have some plan you get up in the morning and you're going to go do something that matters for the country and then you're just instantly by 8 a.m. you know sideswiped by some kind of silly controversy of the day that's basically many of the episodes of the westwing where they like have some actual important thing that they want to get done and then they just get whed by a silly controversy yeah seems to me like you're also the product of the technological innovation that occurred during your presidency and during your term and if you think about Clinton he got to ride the internet and this massive economic boom and you look at you know Reagan the pce boom I mean sometimes the timing really matters I think um though I think you know and again I'm not any Grand expert on the on the Clinton years but I think you know it is interesting where you know one of the first acts of the Clinton presidency was the was the deficit reduction act um you know Dave to your point you know when's the last time that a you know a Democratic president you really really cared about the deficit and I think federal spending fell by Five Points of GDP over the course of the of the Clinton presidency which is really not a small amount you know so obviously there were some kind of structural Tailwinds from you know technology and the internet and all the yeah a bunch of that was defense but but like nonetheless so he did the in the last two administrations and you look at California there were massive Windows of surplus and there were massive Windows of a surging stock market over the last eight years and we plundered and we wasted them by adding 16 trillion to the debt during a good time like what's going to happen during a bad time just absolutely brutal let's move on where do we want to go here we got grock 3 we got the China private sector we got a victory lab for freeberg I want to ask you guys questions about Arc Institute and the Evo model we should do that let's do the arc Institute freedberg why don't you ask the question Patrick runs the arc Institute right okay yes I'm one of the co-founder and then there were scien and you guys are fund of it or yeah maybe you guys give us the a lot of money into this yeah yeah so the arute is a nonprofit it does basic biology research it's in paloalto Nexus Stanford it's about 230 people today and uh yeah John and I are among the funders of us but there's a there's a bunch of other very generous donors can you explain idea of curiosity driven research that's on the website yeah there's kind of two things behind this so the first is scienti the vast majority of biology scientists today receive NIH grants doing basic research and the NIH grants are one just hard to get and annoy to get you know assigned TOS spend 40% of their time working on Grant overhead and so forth but worse like even more perniciously the grants are very restrictive in terms of the kind of science they can do and so we ran a survey of scientists back a couple years ago of top scientists and four out of five like 79% of them told us that if they could just spend money however they wanted if they weren't kind of limited by you know what they're prescribed by these nhh grants for told us they would change the research agenda a lot um and so I think the analogy here is imagine if there was only one VC firm and it was run by the government how would that VC firm had strong opinions on what kind of companies people should build exactly and you know literally the the grand panels at the NIH are um they're consensus based like explicitly they've consensus based scoring mechanisms and they you know penalize you if you're doing work outside of your field and so forth so I we we kind of we go to all this work to train these amazing scientists and then we sort of don't let them pursue their best ideas that's kind of problem one and Arc The Arc investigators you know they're fun to do whatever they want curiosity driven research and then the second thing behind Arc is is this idea that you can kind of divide diseases into three categories you know you have infectious diseases and we we you know broadly speaking know how to you know generate cures for and treatments for infectious diseases we've monogenic diseases like one genetic mutation or something and we don't know how to cure those in most cases but we can we can you screen for them and so on um and then we you know what the biologists call complex diseases where there's some kind of Gene environment interaction that's most cancers most autoimmune diseases most neurodegenerative diseases and so forth Alzheimer's things like that exactly and we've never cured a complex disease and you know many of these diseases are very tragic precisely because you know we not only have we not cured them we don't even have treatments as you know as John says uh in in the case of Alzheimer's for example and so you know the question is can we do something about this and you know what would a research agenda and program that you know can that can help you know shine some light on these complex diseases look like and our hypothesis you know we'll see we'll see uh how much it's born out but our hypothesis is that we've gotten a couple of new technologies over the last couple of years single cell sequencing we can sequence the the DNA or the RNA just like in one cell uh We've you know fancy new functional genomics and crisper Technologies uh so you can make these you know fine edits and perturbations again even just in a single cell and then obviously you have Transformers and Ai and ML and all this stuff and this is kind of a new read think write Loop in biology that just didn't exist a decade ago and again the question is is this powerful enough now to you know solve some of these previously intractable uh diseases and so yesterday Arc released this new uh Foundation model for biology it's the largest biology ml model ever it's it's it's actually I think the largest open source AI model ever this is evo2 you're talking about EO the number two Evo two and so it's not just open weights like uh like you know the Deep seek model or or llama or something it's actually it's open source and the training code is uh is public and you know you can people can go read the blog post of the paper whatever the thing I find amazing about Evo and that just really surprised me is so it's trained on nine trillion base pair Gene tokens so you know uh chat gbt llms are normally trained on on you know the on on human language this is a a language model but it's trained on on DNA the language of life and there's only one human genome in the training set it's mostly other species and even though it's only seen one human genome it's state-of-the-art at predicting the pathogenicity of human genome mutations and so you know a famous mutation is the brocha mutation for breast cancer like it's state-of-the-art at predicting the the pathogenicity the harmfulness of uh of brocka mutations again it only desite never having seen one humans it's it's only seen one human genome and that human you know did not have these pathogenic mutations and so it's it's kind of learning something deep across the tree of life and I know I find that pretty cool and sorry is there a phenotypic data set that's used in training so I think like you know typically right and so when you're building models in typical like genotype by phenotype models you're trying to look at the phenotype the physical characteristics of the organism what can it do what is look like what are the features and then you look at the genome and so that tells you hey these are the specific genes or alterations or mutations that drove this particular phenotype is kind of what the model tries to learn over time with the objective being hey can I ask it to define a genotype or a genome based on a phenotype based on a physical set of characteristics I'm looking for vice versa maybe you can just help us understand what what is it trained on and how you know how did that kind of you know prediction in braa you know how how is that possible great question so it's totally unsupervised that is to say You Know You're just showing us lots of genomes uh and any kind of latent structure that it learns is just based on trying to figure out how to kind of organize uh that knowledge but we're not showing it any labeled data or phenotypic you know kind of outcome data or you know what have you and so then you're able to you can give it a genetic sequence and ask relative to its understanding of genetic Universe how lightly is this particular sequence and so then you can do things like uh like you know predict anomalousness or pathogenicity or whatever right you can also then kind of using the embeddings of the upper layers we need to get two technically here but like you you can train another model on top of the model um and uh and even if you show it maybe only a couple of examples it learns very quickly okay kind of here's you know here's how the weights of evo2 correspond to this particular task and those uh those sort of models trained on top uh turn out to be you know really accurate you guys open source the base model or you open source the fine-tuned or both we open source the base model but there's no kind of proprietary reason that we didn't open source the fine tunes like it's really easy to produce them and yeah if anyone wanted one of them we we we'd happily share it where does it stand in the spectrum of different tools that folks would would use to solve these Life Sciences problems there's cell models that are being developed by some then there's these protein models where does this fit this kind of landscape of of um of foundation models in biology it's obviously very new so it's a um it's a bit of an open question sort of how exactly people are going to find you know ways to to to use it and and applications for it part of I think is cool is that proteins and RNA and I mean phenotypic expression and everything you know all these things sit on top of the DNA like in some sense the DNA encodes everything because you know the the whole organism comes from the DNA and so I guess the question would be and you know we don't really know yet is DNA all you need uh and with EVO One we saw some you know encouraging uh suggestions that for example you can build really good protein structure prediction models out of a DNA Foundation model even if you don't train on a lot of you know protein structure uh data so but I I'd say just it's a really exciting time and it's kind of an open question and I don't know if you analogize evo2 to I don't know whether it's gpd2 or three or something but you know I think we're going to see a similar Cambrian explosion of of applications over the next couple years the thing we really excited about at ARC is is training yeah cell State models and trying to better understand you know how cells you know what what causes them to change States and so we're thinking a lot about that but but you know the reason the the weights are in hugging face and hopefully we'll be surprised in in what Patrick do you just expect that over time as stripe continues to grow you can just take the ex some of your own excess capital and other people will do the same and keep funding Arc and then if there's something that Arc creates or innovates on if it can generate some amount of money it would just kind of flow back is it meant to be self-sustaining or is it always just going to be via patronage from successful folks that just want to keep it going John and I are you know we are ourselves very committed to it and um and you know we're we're kind of underwriting it in that regard but well one we're just lucky where there's a a growing donor pool of other people supporting it I think it's just better for an institution if it's not kind of be P into the whims of you know one donor one group of donors or something so I think that's just a much healthier uh structure for it I think there's also a larg group of people who are just becoming interested in science and realizing I mean you know Jason was on his uh his moral Pulpit my Pulpit is that you know all is not well in basic research uh in the US today and again the way to see this is to just talk to the scientists themselves and they tell you um how kind of inhibited they are and you know the the the kind of problems caused by the strictures and structures around them and we don't see Arc as you know the answer hopefully it can be sort of one point in the space but then you know there's other people doing cool stuff you know Brian Armstrong of course started ACC companying the longevity space and Yuri mner and other started alos and you know this is people this the Chan Zuckerberg Institute and so you know people are trying different things but no Arc is um you know we're we're very happy to support it and then if if you know it's possible that Arc over the long-term become self- sustaining but you know that's well that was my next question is yeah it takes a while to get things into the clinic so you know we're not holding out for that tomorrow well I you know when they uh they have this technology transfer department at every major university where when scientists get grants and they work on some Innovation it gets monetized and so what happens here who owns the Innovations how do you license them because it would be amazing if it just wasn't based on I believe you guys have put over a billion dollars into this that was my understanding is that true just like you guys are over a billion dollars into this effort not quite the numbers yeah not quite the numbers are public so Arc spends around 100 million a year oh okay and it started about uh three years ago so so hundreds of millions of dollars this is a really significant thing yeah and and again I want to emphasize there there are other donors um so it's not just us but I mean it's a nonprofit there there have been spin outs and there will continue to be and so if one of those know really if one of those becomes madna or you know the next OIC or something then you know that could be really good for Arc and Arc might have an endowment and be able to kind of self- sustain and so forth uh we're we're there's no Prospect for us to make money on it in the sense that you know it's aprit yeah well actually John yeah just one thing there I was talking to a friend of mine you could if this thing actually hits you could flip this nonprofit for profit I got a guy you could talk to John go ahead oh strays on the whole like modeling world we talk a lot about the idea that you can kind of use a computer State the phenotype or the physical characteristics you want in a biological organism and have the software resolve the whole genome all the DNA needed to make that physical organism real and it can do it from its prediction ability on what genes what combinations but we're a couple orders away from that right I mean I think like ultimately we we always talk about hey we want to be to define or have the software Define the plant that can grow on the surface of Mars it knows the soil type of Mars it knows the air you know it knows that it's carbon dioxide based it's 10% of the Earth's atmosphere it this is what the day the daylight structure looks like it needs to be wind tolerant and then the software predicts an organism that might be able to do that you know and obviously there's a lot of this predictive work going on in proteins then the higher order is cells so single cell organisms microbial organisms and then ultimately multi cellular organisms so plants and then finally animals where you could basically create organisms from scratch using software because we have all the other tools to biologically put these pieces together today but this is a great kind of I I view it as a pyramid there's a ton of phenotypic data that still needs to be fed in ultimately to kind of have us all understand protein protein models and and a lot more to it but it's a great I think I think that's right like you can uh this there's a certain amount you can probably derive sort of uh you know from first principles just by looking at the genomes but I think the really powerful model model are going to need to do exactly what you say and to feed in a lot of ancillary phenotypic and and just kind of other data how they fa in different environments and the sequencing data got ahead of the phenotyping data because there's so much sequencing data that's com in so you can do a beautiful job predicting like correctness in a genome but and this and the sequencing data is really nicely digital whereas you know the phenotypic stuff it's like well even is the data yeah totally Dave sorry while we're in the science corner I have a question for you Dave which your strawberries you might know answer to this a bunch of tree species around the world are under attack so in Ireland we have this problem of the Ash dieback Ash is kind of Ireland's national tree they use it to make Hurley which is you know the for the national sport and uh since the mid-2010s you know especially as the live plant trade has ramped up we need to get a a hurl for uh for for for Jason Jason absolutely I put right here on the Shelf the American chestnut here yeah no exactly I was going to reference the American chestnut as well in the US but it feels like we have this real problem and it's so where so many beautiful trees are under attack the bar the bark beetle in in California and you know the the various conifers that we're losing so we got to Sol the blackp disee the blackp fungus and cacao and coffee is being destroyed TR4 is destroying banana right now Doom let's go no no like it's a real like is a real this is a real issue down to the science corner here so this is um yeah I mean this is exactly what we aim to address at ohal so in some cases you can actually silence a gene that's a suppressor of immune function of the organism which can actually improve disease resistance but how do you do delivery of that do you like this Airborne sprays or what's the yeah how do how do how do you treat the tree yep so ultimately if you're going to use a a genomic method you would transform the genome so you would edit the genome and you would regenerate a plant or regenerate a tree and then propagate that tree okay but then like we we have to replant all the trees we to replant the trees we'd have to replant the trees and ultimately do custom projects can we do a little thing on Ash in Ireland absolutely that is some of the work we do so we announced a few weeks ago a partnership with University Florida to use our methods to basically introduce disease resistance for major fungal pathogen that's destroying the Florida strawberry crop and so that's what we call a trait program at ohol where we can identify specific genomic trait that we can go and introduce into that plant but then you're right you do have to grow all the plants back and then put them back in the ground that's the second best to to Pure Extinction but um I have in in Ireland I ended up owning this kind of country house and uh virgin woodlands where you know Woodlands that Ireland was used to be fully forested and then was denuded with the arrival of Agriculture and there's uh some kind of ancient Woodlands on it that are from the original when Ireland was fully kind of covered in trees and I find the die off of species very sad and so we got to get yeah but no it's I'm not like I I'm I'm very optimistic like we know how to address these Solutions we know how to regenerate the trees we can we we can do this quickly we can resolve these problems but you are right I think you should be selling a skew a skew to the people in Tahoe like you know the Tahoe Basin has been so worse than decimated as in decimation is only one in 10 which is like you know half the half the trees in in Tahoe have been hit by by bark Beetle so those are very interesting ones because insects you can actually build very specific defense mechanisms against uh insects but we generally have to improve genetic diversity and in doing so you know there there's a natural resistance because the evolutionary like like the reason we have a TR4 problem in banana all the world's banana that we grow commercially comes from one original banana clone called dwarf Cavendish and they took that one plant they cut clippings of it put it in the ground grow another plant cut clippings of that and they kept multiplying it so all the bananas we eat and all the bananas that are planted across tens of millions of Acres worldwide come from one original clone and because of that this fungus has been exceptionally capable of evolving itself to better eat that banana plant and so 60 cents of every dollar we spend on bananas today goes towards fungicide we're spraying these banana trees once or multiple times a week to kill this fungus we're consuming that it's super expensive and if we had genetic diversity if we had better genetics in the banana programs around the world we'd be able to radically matter what the administration says you think we need more diversity are you in favor of Dei freedberg they cornered you freedberg I got you got to make one promise to me here it comes you're not going to start working on Raptors I don't want to see any of these Raptors running around uh San Francisco okay jamaath your thoughts here on um science corner here it's been a really enthralling one the Raptors are coming for you I find it incredibly inspiring that there's just so much movement in these foundational models it's incredible like every day just seems like there's something new the biggest problem that I think that the commercial Community is going to deal with is how to actually take advantage of it because you're kind of head spins because you don't exactly know where to start the biological models are are different in that I think it's a much smaller population of people that will use it and I think they do have to figure out how to take these models and and complement the existing pipeline they have the pipeline they have right now I think is pretty brittle I think we all know that in life sciences my wife struggles with this a lot is how to complement a very traditional Pipeline with this kind of stuff so I see it firsthand in how she tries to allocate Capital towards these problems on the other side I just think these foundational models are really incredible and I think that I was completely wrong on a couple of my earlier thoughts one thought that I had for a long time was it just seemed like all these base models were ASM toting and so I was not convinced where all this capex would go in a productive way like why are you buying all these Nvidia gpus and then I think if you looked at Colossus the elon's Colossus xai built the largest data center over 100,000 gpus going to 200,000 in 122 days I mean basically what he proved was that there are still valuable gains in pre-training and so the larger the cluster the more value that there is now he also benefits I guess from the X feed but was really interesting so now I'm like a little bullish on Nvidia I'm like oh my God if this is true then all this capex may be justified you could be buying a lot of stuff then you look I I actually also just to maybe Riff on this grock 3 thing for one second I had three takeaways my first takeaway was I was sneakily surprised on the pre-training upside on having a larger cluster so I think that that's very Pro Nvidia actually and and it's actually also just really good in general for foundational model so I think like that's like a really positive thing the second thing is I don't know if you watched the live stream but did you guys hear some of the stuff that these guys had to pull to pull this thing off one of the most incredible so the way that Elon narrated it was we first had a physical problem so we just had to search all around the country for one single location where we could actually put 100,000 gpus and they found it which was an old Electrolux Factory in Memphis that's kind of interesting he only had like 15 megawatt and he had to get a quarter gwatt and so he had to basically buy every useful generator that was available but then they had to liquid cool it and so they bought onethird of all the portable liquid cooling capacity in America and located it on Prem but then they figured out that there was a power problem so then they took all these Tesla power packs and then had to do power smoothing which had them had to rewrite all of the Power Pack firm in all of this you know how we talked about deep seek being this moment where we had lost sight in America of uh Capital being the source of innovation he proves actually a more generalized rule that I took away from this which is you always have to have a constraint so meaning let's say that there's like infinite capital in his case and infinite talent because he can basically recruit anybody he wants what did he do instead he created this artificial constraint of time and so he was just able to sayou going to get this done in a moment and Nick I show the the third graph that the guys at artificial analysis sent to me I just want to put it up here because it shows you guys the quality of grock 3 relative to the amount of time that they've spent on this problem is to me what's staggering so if you just sort of project the rate of change of this and this is without judging open AI or anthropic or anything else those guys have been doing it for years these guys have been doing it for a year and they did all of this mcgyver engineering and were able to pull this off so that's my second takeaway is that Innovation needs a constraint sometimes it's Capital sometimes it's talent and sometimes it's time and so if you can basically be just completely rigid on one of those Dimensions you can get a great team to create something so that was an interesting takeaway and then the third is I think what this also speaks to is the notion of like a cetu right which is like the Japanese word for like companies that work together while still remaining independent conglomerates yeah lose part it's more interl companies inter you know Koreans have chals right Japanese Japanese have cetus but this is the manifestation of an American ketu which is Elon is able to get Engineers from Tesla he's not just buying the power packs he had them re-engineer the actual firmware in real time on site and so there's this this positive ability to just like organize effort and human capital like look could we all stand up at Data Center and go and buy $500 million a power packs from Panasonic absolutely it would take a few months 18 and then when it looked like we need to rewrite the firmware it would take another 18 months to your point Jason so it's really incredible what what these guys are able to do together those are my it was really really inspiring chath a book I think you might find really fun is uh it's called Henry Kaiser builder in the American West but Kaiser is kind of underappreciated these days he was the Elon of his time he started as a road builder of all things he won the contract to build the Hoover Dam he built the Hoover Dam he started a shipyard during World War II uh yeah exactly this made cars he he he decided to make cars he decided to make airplanes stations TVs the the famous 4day Liberty ship uh remember the propaganda win during World War II of you know they were able to lay down that was at the Kaiser shipyards Kaiser Permanente spun out of them as part of their um John I was literally TR was saying that pulling up my notes from the book um and uh just he was just a complete phenam and he just kept finding new Industries it's like oh building cars how hard can it be oh building airplanes how hard can it be yeah I mean that is the nature entrepreneurship the nature of Entrepreneurship is doing something delusional and then just letting you know most R preneurs just do one delusional Thing Once and stay that like again Elon and Henry Kaiser back in the day it's in the world of atoms very hard things short timelines and S San Francisco now kind of at least in the physical domain stands for a kind of stasis you know it takes you 10 years to you know build anything um but when he had the ship the toilet the ship building yards here he went from zero to 100,000 people in Richmond in one year he basically built the city of Richmond California how do you how do you but guys okay let's just double how how do you think these guys pull this off I personal sacrifice massive personal sacrifice I understand that Jason but I'm I'm talking about like tactically pull this off where you have to be on site at some point organizing this team directing this team being able to help isolate these problems fix them it just seems impossible to do it once let alone six I don't understand how they do I actually have some insight to this just from knowing Elon this lot of these things compound a lot of what he learned in Material Science doing SpaceX and about making uh the engines and then working with metal you see in his production at Tesla and specifically in the Cyber truck he has learned so much about factories I don't think there's a person on the planet who knows more about factories now having built a battery Factory a space Factory an engine Factory and a car factory and now building Optimus on of that so these things compound and then a lot of the engineers will float between the companies so there are folks who have worked at SpaceX who then go do a tour over at Tesla Etc and a number of those wound up coming into um you I'm going to read you a few quotes in this book I'm just going to see if they remind you of of anyone Kaiser's managers challenged convention from the start as Builders they were expert at coordinating workers and materials Kaiser was almost contemptuous of traditional methods his Partners had long since despaired of getting him to follow customary procedures in preparing his bids for each new job Kaiser would try to conceive every possible technique that might justify uh making a bid low enough to win the chob once the construction was underway he was forever trying to come up with ideas that would expedite the work perhaps more than any other Builder he believed that the faster a job gets done the lower the costs can be that's incredible incredible well and what happened with is they had told Elon that it would when he wanted to use other network operation centers to host Colossus you know and he looked they were not available and when he did find quotes from them they told him 18 to 24 months he just determined hey if this there's no reason to even do this if I can't get this done in you know a 100 days or something why even join the race I'm going to be so far behind and if you look just to wrap this segment up and get on to our final two segments if you look at these two charts about grock it's now uh and you know listen these benchmarks and these Arenas and testing there's a lot of controversy around them and people keep leapfrogging each other but they they do give us I think our best shot at looking at progress this is The Benchmark here for grock on a bunch of different tests Math Science and coding and as you can see grock 3 has now eclipsed Gemini which is uh Google's llm and deep seek from China Claude and chat GPT 40 and so to your point it's pretty impressive yeah top of the lmis leaderboard the the thing here I think freeberg I'd like to get your um comment on is if Hardware is the constraint does that mean that the person who understands hardware and buildout as chth was pointing to does that mean that they by default win Jason hold on this is what's counterintuitive it wasn't clear because no it was not yes I would guess that the last couple of iterations it seemed like open AI has moved to what comes after the base model meaning in the allocation of resources in terms of what they were creating and so this is what's so counterintuitive he was like No And so I I don't understand what he knew that everybody else didn't know but that the size of that cluster made no sense and it could only be a result like this where he basically proved that there was still value in pre-training where size actually led to better outcomes that's that's not that I think that was counter it's super consequential is my is I'm in complete agreement with the chth and just freeberg to wrap the segment up and put a bow on it we see these llms they've made incredible progress as we just heard from ev2 or evo2 I'm sorry a Gro and we're making these giant gains in space uh you know in work and specifically in space Dave do you think this will get us any closer to Uranus so sad so sad it didn't even land okay let's do our final don't even don't even acknowledge don't even acknowledge it do not acknowledge it because we'll just do more of it I tried to get your mouth to do one he wouldn't do it okay last two segments we're going to talk about staying private longer and when you guys are going to go public and then there's an asteroid coming what do we want to do first boys you want to talk about this asteroid coming is it the end of the world if it hits us what's going on NASA dropped the probability of it hitting Earth to one and a half% so every day when the sky gets dark they can do a better job seeing this asteroid that everyone's freaking out about so we finally got a good night sky two nights ago the telescopes were able to get a better trajectory reading on it and that allows the models to make estimates on the probability of this asteroid hitting Earth in 2032 when it's projected uh to our orbit and so right now the probability is estimated at 1.5% that it will hit the earth and based on the size of this asteroid there's this range it goes up to 320 feet in diameter as small as 80 feet in diameter which actually can have a pretty big effect on how big of an energy release there would be if it actually uh you know hit the earth so even on the high end if it was call it 300 feet it would be the equivalent of call it a 20 Megaton bomb wow which is not insignificant if it were that big it would hit the earth if it was smaller than that it would probably just detonate me air and create a massive shock wave and and Firestorm but the region that it would decimate would be limited uh to probably a couple dozen miles up to a thousand miles of effect and if you look at the total surface area of the Earth you know we're talking about 10 to 15% of the earth having people that habitate you know enough people to habitate probably going to land in an ocean right I mean all right yeah so it's one and a half% chance of hitting the Earth and then call it a 15% chance of it hits the Earth causing loss of life 10 basis points it hits a city one basis point City and right and then it's a function of how big it is if it's actually as small as 80 feet then it's not going to be that significant even if it does get close to habited area so yeah I'm not losing sleep over over there did you come across in your research I feel like this is a real boys are monitoring the situation moment did you come across the tunguska event research so that one Inc yeah so uh I don't you want to talk about it go ahead yeah Ju Just um no one knows this in 1908 an asteroid hit the earth it hit an relatively uninhabited part of Russia it was a first off the asteroid did not hit the Earth because it got so hot on re-entry there was an air burst and it was a thousand harashima in size the explosion yeah they have here the 60 meter asteroid and they have the megat tonage somewhere wow it's the yeah largest impact event in recorded history obviously there was you know stuff before recorded history it flattened 80 million trees weirdly basically no one was killed because he was so uninhabited but this is quite comparable to the one that NASA is talking about that's right it's about the same size y exactly and I think you could take a little bit of reassurance maybe that we have had similar size asteroids hit before and there is some existence proof that despite the giant explosion you know it doesn't show up in the climactic data for 198 Tusa asteroid was at like 160 200t so if if this asteroid is in that range and it the Earth you have this kind of explosion in the air if it gets above I think 250 roughly is where they think that it doesn't burn up fully in the air and it actually will strike the Earth but yeah that's um there you go this is roughly what we saw happen what we think the size will be right if it hits is there a counter measure I don't mean to get all sci-fi here great question yeah but is there a countermeasure possible and like if this thing was coming let's say in five years size yeah relative to the Earth this is like tens of thousands of kilometers an hour right it's it's a it's a very fast moving object it's pretty small right 160 ft so you've now got to figure out the exact trajectory get it perfectly right get a launch off of the earth and intercept this thing at the exact moment that you need to to push it off course or detonate something near buy it to to redirect it so technically very complicated very hard to pull off but this is exactly why we have this planetary defense funding at Nasa which is to track these objects and this is another example by the way where I would say AI can play an important role and I'd love Patrick and John to aine on this but I have a thesis that like AI more than anything unlocks deeply complicated project for humans that would otherwise be kind of infeasible in the pre AI era I think in the post a era we're going to be like oh here's all these projects that we do that are like oh you know we we on a daily basis we mine to the Center of the Earth and we get cool like Rare Earth minerals from like 500 miles down and we go to space and colonize the moon and all these crazy things because AI unlocks these large scale projects that would require millions of people to do things in a coordinated way and AI can be very smart in this way but I think AI could play a role also in these planetary Defense Initiative Concepts jcal in the future where you can actually build an a complete project model in software on how you would actually address this problem and then you know go execute it with Automation and but yeah there's a planetary defense function at Nasa they track these objects and they're funded to do it so we hope that NASA continues to get funding to do this work very important and guys it just came through that NASA just dropped the probability of a impact event to about a one-third of 1% so it's gotten even smaller which is we can all go to sleep comfortably tonight all right all right now everybody's been waiting for Patrick John you founded the company in 2010 it's uh 15 years later the entire LP industrial complex and venture capitalist everywhere I'm sure some employees are wondering when will stripe go public and under what circumstances and what's the hold up here why aren't you public already yeah look um I think people sometimes hold us out to be dogmatic or something on this topic whereas we feel like so many other people out there in the world are dogmatic and we just Tred to be pragmatic H us you know Keith was on the show and he was saying you know he believes companies should go public as quickly as possible I don't know maybe that's the right thing for some companies but uh in at least Stripes case that that hasn't been the case I also think the environment has changed quite a bit where it used to be the case to that to do any return of capital to shareholders you know or if you needed any kind of large sums of money you needed the public markets that's obviously not true today where uh the you know stable private markets exist but we look and we say is strip better off at the moment as a private or a public company and you know up to this point we have determined private that could change at some point but it's kind of no Dogma from our point the last thing I'll just say is you know I think Keith made the argument people generally make the argument that it is critical for discipline to be public and public companies run in a more disciplined fashion and I think that's hogwash like if you need a 25-year-old Fidelity analyst asking you to double click on your capex blah blah blah blah to run the company with discipline something is horribly wrong at the company and you need new management and so that argument has never really resonated with me basically what you guys are saying is for your intellectual perspective you get a lot more return on the time you spend talking with the private investors you have and your team and then and customers and customers and it would just be delive and you would have your outcomes quite honestly if you had to talk to these other folks who are talking to you and 50 other companies don't really know much of anything maybe very surface level and then may actually distract you and force you to make decisions you don't want to make we're not even that negative not that negative I was going to say but but it's um there's no spiritual status associated with being public like why be public it is a cheaper source of deeper and more liquid capital and so if you want cheaper and uh and more liquid Capital then you know by all means go with it but you know it's it's not it's not more moral and and I think you know again it's it's just helpful to sort of get away from uh from that kind of framing I also think it's noteworthy if you look at Financial Services in particular and we're kind of a company at the intersection of financial services and Technology being private for a long time is is the norm so you know Bloomberg is a private company Fidel is a private company vanguard's a private company Jane Street's private company um gold citel secur Citadel Citadel yeah Goldman waited 130 years to go public JB Morgan waited 70 years to go public Visa waited Visa waited 50 years to go public and you know again those are all kind of different times in history so that's saying you can draw def them but I but well I I think the thing in financial services where there's always a tendency uniquely here to be kind of procyclical and I think you need to be kind of particularly careful as a public financial services company to avoid some of those Temptations and some of those Tendencies and so you know I think that that that's a unique Dynamic that applies uh in our space and uh and then you know Financial Services generally if you look at companies like SpaceX they're able to provide this yearly liquidity which actually is probably better because it Smooths out a lot of all and then people can get back to work and just kind of are you guys profit by the way we are profitable yeah I'm profitable like a fully loaded Gap net income basis not like a community adjusted e but a stuff but shout out Adam Newman come on the prod anytime you gotta wear shoes yeah I do think we think as it comes you know pertains to people joining the business and being compensated you know everyone loves the idea of an IPO pop but if you look at a bunch of the other fintech companies you know Square really great company 70% off its 2021 Peak PayPal 80% off their 2021 Peak if you're an employee and you join those companies in 2021 it's not a great feeling and so again I think the um the the lack of Val you know the the good and the bad is you are Nas priced every single day by the markers but it's not only a bad thing the framework you know if I'm trying to predict our actions like the framework we use is is kind of two things one I I think you know what matters is less kind of the returns in a given year and more duration and so the question is you know what enables the best compounding on sort of a 10-e Time Horizon and you know what's best for shareholders uh as you really take kind of the the longer term perspective and then just what's best for customers and you know what you know helps you build the best products and you chat you kind of said it where you know at least at this juncture with the business growing at this rate we want to spend the marginal hour with h with some customer and and I think you guys have gotten this sense like this is our life's work you know we're not going anywhere we'll be very happily running stripe in 10 years time in years time and there's so much going on in this space where we spent a bunch of time talking about stable coins talking about AI everything like that and it's hard enough to stay ahead in the world of business you know without all these distractions like you said and so it's just a question of how do you set yourself up to win and do right by a new one in a the world's pretty competitive I think if you had to Steelman the bill Gurley point of view there are very few Founders that are probably as Steely eyed as you guys and so what I think a lot of Bo members in most other situations that are not stripe deal with is what is a good forcing function to keep these folks on track focused and focused and thinking in a multi-decade kind of way and they found that the public markets I think do that more than anything else that's probably the most compelling for the folks that would otherwise maybe get distracted but then for guys like you that can frankly just do it it's it's great all right impressive it's really impressive congratulations well appreciate you guys coming on the program come back anytime you were awesome today and listen let's recap what have we learned people got to put some pants on and get back to work constraint makes for great art Stripes going public in 2050 chamath lost five billion not investing uh the coulson's read a lot of books but I'm still kicking live and kicking bro he's still in the arena got a lot of chips still to fire so see what happen to fire fire fire South American president shouldn't have their own meme coins and life finds a way we are and and you pronounce a kison obviously as aison because you know we're down the road and carry and we go and get some eggs and bakey sometimes okay coming to South by Southwest brought to you by the co cison brothers and stripe a Allin is headed to the South by Southwest they're not sponsoring it I'm joking Allin is headed to South by Southwest on March 13th me and freeberg are going to sit down and do our interviews two besties on the future of Med media and building businesses in this new media ecosystem we're going to have a casual party food drinks the whole thing event is going to be uh pretty intimate couple hundred seats when are you guys do this March 13 you opt it out me and freeberg want to do it oh Thursday no K doker and uh it's by application only with a small $30 registration fee of which stripe will take $19 go to allin.com events to apply I'm not B about it and programming note the besties are on a tear we were on Megan Kelly last week and next week our bestie fredberg is representing us on Celebrity Jeopardy we can't say what happened get the clips ready get the clips get the clips ready we are going to do a recap of every single question when when do you when do you when ises it air on Monday next week I think I don't know Wednesday at 900 p.m. Wednesday Wednesday at 9M perfect before the taping yum yum H yeah perfect perfect there he is between Anna Navaro she's from The View right well she's pretty angry I've seen clips of her she's I should have gotten some counsel ahead of signing up for Celebrity Jeopardy on the lack of upside in doing this and you will see why we'll talk next week oh no bye oh no you lost not good you lost view you didn't lose to the view did you look guys I'm just telling you got 160 IQ The View put together doesn't have 160 IQ let me just tell you well we'll talk about it afterwards don't tell me they got you on pop culture you're pretty good on pop culture oh no no comment okay love you guys I got to go love you bye bye see you next time bye boys let your winners ride and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it Love You Queen [Music] of Besties that's my dog taking your driveway oh man myit we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all just useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release somehow P we need to get merch [Music] our I'm going in